Has the NSA ever gotten anyone arrested for just a google search?

I don’t think they’re out to get us – those 95% of us who are mildly dissatisfied with the way things are but not passionate enough to do anything more than complain about it on random internet forums. I do think they are watching us, all of us, pretty much all the time. Information capture and storage is cheap.

The danger is not that random US citizens are disappearing because of their Google searches right now. It’s that someday the information may fall into the wrong hands, or they’ll be a change in the political climate, and suddenly you can easily identify and detain a bunch of Muslims/communists/environmentalists/Japanese/blacks/Tea Partiers and produce trumped-up evidence against them using an angry phrase they muttered as teenagers on Facebook, and there’ll be no oversight against that because the President is a lame duck/Congress is apathetic or in on it/the Fourth Estate is dead/the Supreme Court will issue angry but unenforceable decrees, etc. It shifts the balance of power away from a purposely-divided government, whose separation of powers was expressly meant as a check against thoughtless unilateral action, and gives it to a shady, secret part of the Executive that few elected officials and no regular citizens are moderating. That’s not really democratic. And it’s not really safe.

Today it is ostensibly used to protect against terrorism, which is currently defined as being a violent Muslim-looking man. Yesterday it was the communists and the blacks, tomorrow it could be the animal rights folks, the anti-capitalists, anti-fracking groups, or anybody who wants encrypted online communications. Governmental action against dissident groups isn’t exactly unheard of in our history. It could be as inconvenient as being put on a No Fly List for which you have little to no recourse against, or it could be exile-by-propaganda, or it could be much, much worse if the political climate should become more dangerous.

Power unchecked is rarely used for good for long, and if a group of people decide they don’t like you and can use every mistake you’ve ever made against you in the court of public opinion and you know nothing about them to defend yourself with, what exactly are you going to do? We know how Assange and Snowden answered that – and in their case they at least had substantial collateral to fight back with.

How difficult would it be to discredit tomorrow’s whistleblower who might’ve mumbled a few seemingly un-American phrases earlier in her youth? A few choice tweets, taken out of context…

If the next terrorist attack claims 300,000 instead of 3,000, how many American freedoms do you think will still remain? How much of the information they have on you do you think they’ll use to find the perpetrators, and failing that, the scapegoats? We took down two countries and killed thousands in our last search. How safe will you be if you remotely resemble one of the attackers, if you visited some of the same websites, if you perhaps even share some of their ideology? Between profiling and entrapment, guilt-by-association is a very real thing even today. And this is when things are relatively good for most US citizens. When the next big attack comes, how much do you think people will value your freedom versus their safety – especially if you’re an easily-otherized minority group?

Not every person unhappy with the US is going to express their discontent through violent public action, broadcasting their guilt to a public who is then going to be OK with their assassination.

Would you’ve supported an impromptu execution of John Walker Lindh too?

What about Guantanamo Bay prisoners?

They’re just murderous criminals who deserve to die, right? But what if their accusers fuck up? Due process isn’t there to be deliberately inefficient, but to help catch mistakes that decision-makers inevitably make. In the case of these terrorists, rarely do they have lawyers good enough to stand up to the resources of the US Government. It is convenient for Obama that he was obviously Muslim and obviously anti-American. Not every dissident is going to be that way, but next time they can say “Oh, well, we did it to al’Awlaki and nobody really cared aside from the ACLU… why don’t we try it again with this other guy? Just take him out.”

Hey, me too. I want to see it serve all its citizens and their differing views, not act as the security arm of its elite.

They don’t have to examine all of it in real-time. They can log it and look into it later, if you become suspicious. Let’s hope the definition of “suspicious” doesn’t expand too much.

Excuse my ignorance, what is legal and illegal porn?

Child pornography, I’m guessing. At least I hope that’s the only kind of illegal porn these days! :eek:

(YMMV outside the USA, naturally.)

In the United States, it basically comes down to what a local court of law decides in the very rare cases that it goes to trial, during which an obscenity determination is made. The standards for what is “obscene” has loosened dramatically over time (in this country) and today pretty much anything apart from child porn and the maiming/killing of performers is considered OK. There are communities with more stringent porn laws on the books but they are rarely if ever enforced.

For example, the distribution of ANY pornography is outright illegal in Utah – doesn’t matter if it’s child porn or not. In the words of its attorney general, it considers all pornography to be obscene, and so not subject to First Amendment protections. Yet Utah is also the biggest porn consumer in the United States.

So really, it doesn’t matter what the books say. No state has the resources to enforce a ban on regular porn, so they go after child pornographers, maybe makers of real sniff films, and most everyone else just gets a free pass. Previous thread on the topic. Suffice to say there is still porn in Utah, plenty of it, and even the Mormon-owned chain Marriott sells porn in its hotels.

If you want to see what passes for law tehse days, watch Law and Order, our guide to legal procedure in the USA.

When the SVU or Special Crimes cops want the cooperation of a reluctant bar or restarant owner, what do they do? They threaten to call the health inspector and the building inspector and have the place closed down. It always gets the desired result.

This is the direction laws are going with all of us if we are not careful. Like the health code, ther will be so many laws that you are guaranteed that there will be something, if not to convict you over, at least tie you up in court and bankrupt you with legal fees.

Fully automated data collection and storing all that information for future reference simply ensures that when they need to examine your behaviour in the future, they have plenty of data to mine. Were you talking on a cellphone while driving? We have the towe locations indicating you were moving. Claim you were a passenger? Our records for your alleged driver indicate their cellphone was in the office and they were making a call… Heck, I think it was LA or NYC was issuing expensive tickets for jaywalking a few months ago. If they want to find you and get you, they can. The possible sentences get bigger and bigger so that it’s more and more in the persecuted’s interest to plea bargain even if innocent, thus removing the inconvenience of a public trial.

So if it becomes given that they can prosecute/persecute anyone anytime, who do they pick on? L&O politely shows them picking on the obviously guilty. Notice how even there, the script shows them arresting innocent people, usually in the manner calculated to create the most damage to their career or employment - again, police throwing their weight around.

However, if they can do this sort of thing without oversight, then they start to pick on critics, troublemakers, and eventually doing favours for politicians (including DA’s) needing to silence critics or possible opponents. People like Michael Moore might be too prominent to get away with harrassing, but for example tehre was one case where a polic officer was committed to a mental hospital by his superiors for threatening to expose corruption. (Then “ripped from the headlines” and turned into a L&O episode…)

Once it reaches that stage, the possibility that “your legal inconvenience will go away for a small facilitating payment” is just around the corner. Followed by “I need a new Mercedes, who can I hit up for facilitating fees”? Welcome to the third world.

And just in case they need to know where you went or you are at any time…

Store all data from license plate readers.

I’ve seen some pretty hard evidence used as a GQ cite to lock down a well argued point, and a TV show reference certainly tops them all. You got us all there.

Thanks. :slight_smile:

I’ve seen that “we’ll call the health inspector” dodge in enough different shows and movies that either (a) it’s typical or (b) it’s what Hollywood writers think is typical of police behaviour. Police would never abuse their authority through selective enforcement of laws, would they?

A relative from NYC suggested that from his experience in business renovations there, in the 1970’s “building inpector” and the permit process was a way for the applicable involved parties to ensure they and certain union types got gratuities in return for allowing you to do what you wanted to do to your own property.

Of course, the police department tricks to try and avoid revealing what by law they must about license plate data they collect and keep - not fiction, except for the police department excuses.

Also, instructions by the NSA to other law enforcement organizations on how to create false justifications for searches and arrests - probably just more Snowden fiction, according to the NSA.

To return to the OP - the danger with having a huge repository of historical data, that can be mined for any offenses at the authorities’ discretion- is that last word, “discretion”.

If someone had been arrested on NSA tips, why would authorities say so? They would simply find a way to explain the discovery of incriminating data from other means.

That’s basically the long and short of it. I can imagine the NSA triggering an investigation based on someone’s internet activity, but to actually charge them with a crime, solid hard evidence is required. And if the person’s not guilty, or covers their tracks good enough, then it’s a major uphill battle for the gov’t. to charge them with anything – or set them up, depending on how badly they want them gone from the system.

The thing is, the NSA is so protective of their soooper-sekret information about our cell phone calls and emails, they won’t even share it with the FBI or CIA. And that’s for actual terrorists.

I studied once along with a police officer who worked in an unit specialized in overseeing places such as bars, restaurants, etc… He told me that finding pretexts to close places at the request of other police services was a significant part of their job. Obviously, that was in France, and I’ve no way to know if he was telling the truth.

That’s not true. Each of the Intelligence Community members has a presence on the NSA side of Ft. Meade (NSA HQ). A fairly recent blip on the radar that went largely unnoticed was Hemisphere , which was DEA-sponsored and involved data mining (for legitimate purposes) on a scale that exceeded many of the leaked projects.