and i don’t make it to this forum often, but i do read. the discussions have led me to a stronger belief in something larger than myself. and you can call that something god, og or fred as far as i am concerned. and it would certainly never be my place to tell anyone what, if anything, they are to believe. but i don’t believe it is random anymore. cripes if there is any reason to believe in intelligent design you folks are proof.
I’m as frequent a poster as there is in religious debates, and I don’t insult believers either. It does seem to me that they take some things as personal insults that aren’t intended to be. I’ve seen a lot of believers bristle at analogies like the FSM, for instance, thinking that the analogy is intended to ridicule when it’s intended only as a logical parallel.
I’ve also been accused of attacking Christians or attacking “God” if I point out errors or contradictions in the Bible. Plenty of believers understand the difference between critiquing the alleged divine authorship of the Bible or trying to logically analyze a specific belief system and ridiculing the people who believe it, but some people perceive any critique of their beliefs as an attack on them personally.
I’ve also noticed that some of those who feel they’re being mocked or sense hostility in those threads have no problem mocking or expressing hostility towards belief systems which are not their own (Raelians, Mormons, Muslims, Scientologists, etc.).
I always figured that a site like de-conversion.com was more likely to persuade believers to change their beliefs, since it’s geared specifically towards that and towards skepticism and doubt (regarding religion).
Dio, I agree with almost everything you’ve said in this post, but I am pretty sure that some posters here do use the FSM with the intent to ridicule. Not you, but some others.
Some of your posts on bible topics have led me into some interesting studies of my own, so thanks for that.
I have been wondering how so many atheists ended up here. I mostly avoid religious debates but I guess there are a lot here.
I don’t think it’s changed the roots of my faith, but it has changed how I think about and interact with people who don’t share it. I have a much better understanding of non-religious people and viewpoints, and that’s a good thing because it helps me be a better Christian by not inadvertantly being a jerk to them.
I’m more liberal than I was ten years ago when I started posting here, but I think that’s just part of my maturing and I don’t ascribe it to my participation on an internet message board.
I am constantly amazed, with some exceptions, about how quick people are to judge religion while simultaneously being stunningly ignorant of anything but the grossest charactatures of it. 
I think I was an atheist by the time I started posting here, but speaking more generally, I was definitely “converted” from a nebulous theism to atheism by reading arguments on the internet.
I wonder if the perceived hostility to religion here is due to the mission of the board. When you come together around the idea of rational, evidence-based knowledge, the idea of faith (belief regardless of evidence) can seem out of place. Nevertheless, I think there are plenty of atheists who are polite - it’s just the impolite ones stick out.
Perhaps, but I don’t really remember. I want to say it was here that I first learned of Morrie Schwartz. Watching the Nightline interview on Youtube played a big role. So, it was most certainly the internet’s fault.
I know that losing my religion would have been a much bigger deal without the Dope, though. Seeing all kinds of rational, and (generally) still kind atheists allows one to say, “meh, I’m an atheist now. So what, wanna fight about it?”
Sorry if this is a hijack, but I think if people are using the FSM to ridicule they are missing the point. The reason FSM was created was to specifically put a hole in the argument that creationism should be taught in schools because schools are obliged to present all views of the universe. FSM says “if this is true, then even if only one person holds a certain view it must be taught”. Furthermore, some creationists believe that teaching creationism in biology is justified because it is scientific, and Pastafarianism is all about showing examples of purposely bad science (correlation vs. causation wrt pirates and global warming) to highlight why scientific rigor in the classroom is important.
FSM is not:
- a critique of organized religion
- a lampoon of Christianity
Posts from some of the more tolerant and patient posters have definitely moved me along the spectrum from a fairly firm belief in Christianity to agnosticism leaning toward atheism. But at the same time, posts from the bigger jackasses belittling religion have made me more tolerant of other people who are religious.
Reading religious debates (that I rarely if ever participate in) has changed my religious views. I’m certainly not an atheist, but I’m not a Christian either. In fact, I’m not even sure if there is a word to describe my religious views.
I was hanging around the atheism newsgroups when the IPU, which predates the FSM, was introduced. The IPU was designed specifically to address the special pleading used by theists arguing for the Western variety of God. The idea was that the very arguments made for the IPU were made for God, but the latter were somehow better. And theists do get bent out of shape by it, in my experience the more liberal ones more than the more fundamentalist variety.
ok, once again into the forum breach.
what in the world is fsm?
and i’m with regallag. my beliefs, while christian in origin, are hard to put in any static box.
Flying Spaghetti Monster
and i don’t want to hijack this but …
i consider myself to be religous.
i believe that there is more to being than just the years we spend on this planet.
i believe you should treat others as you would have them treat you.
i believe that if one of our fellows stumble we ought to help them up to the best of our ability.
i believe that to those that much has been given much is expected.
and no freaking violence. there is no exception.
oh, and ice cream on hot summer nights is like an inalienable right. iced tea (not sweetened) is also kind of a given during the afternoons.
thanks.
it looks to be purposely disparaging, however. so the baby is ugly, why be brutally honest and tell the parents?
i don’t get that. must be why i only exist in the game room playing mafia.
There wasn’t any single post that pushed my from uncritical agnostic to atheist, but some of the discussion here certainly influenced my thoughts.
I went from being a Deist to a Unitarian Deist due to the Dope - functionally, it helped me determine to join a church - although it hasn’t really changed what I believe.
Not to put too fine a point on it, it’s kind of physically impossible to do so, when you get right down to the nitty-gritty. From an atheist perspective, it is literally impossible to truly discuss the existence of God(s) and/or organized religion in such a way that is not, at some point, going to potentially insult a person who subscribes to those beliefs. Religion by its very definition relies in at least some small part on faith, and is the very antithesis of the evidence-based mentality that tends to prevail on this board.
This is why I don’t talk religion with my family. I haven’t yet found a good way to phrase things that doesn’t ultimately boil down to, “You’re putting your trust in a bunch of made-up things that there’s a pretty firm chain of evidence and logic to prove were made up.” That’s why, IMO, things like the FSM and IPU are so insulting to religious people: because they force them to see how ridiculous and transparent their “arguments” truly are when applied in a universal way.
This board didn’t “turn” me into an atheist but I think it’s been part of a transformation I’ve undergone in the past 10 years. The internet played a big part of it. The sacred texts online site, all the great history and religion sites you can peruse. I always had questions about Christianity that I could never find answers for, and before I thought it was just one of God’s mysteries. After I learned more I realized there were no answers because one answer would contradict another. It didn’t make sense because it didn’t make sense, not because I haven’t ever found the right explanations.
I never would have pursued the knowledge if it had been up to me to go to the library and check out books. I’m big fan of reading but I just don’t have the capacity or attention span for reading philosophy and religion books. I’m struggling right now to get through a really interesting book by the Dalai Lama. It’s half photographs, for goodness sake! I’m just dense I guess. AND I tend to ramble.
Anyway, back on the subject, I come from a Christian background, Southern gentle people who don’t question God. I thought most of the world was the same way, and those who weren’t were to be pitied. I learned on this board just how sheltered I was.