Dopers: Belief/Disbelief and Polarity Changes

Great Debates
1

Dear Dopers,

As I sit before my monitor following threads in the great and complex tapestry that is the communal thought of the SDMB, I find myself wondering, given the range of spiritual belief and disbelief professed amongst us, how many of us, regulars and lurkers alike, have found their personal belief or disbelief in spiritual matters changed or changing as a result, direct or indirect, of discussions which have taken place about said matters on this board?

I would like to make it clear that I do not intend this thread to be a debate about belief or disbelief; rather I see it as a thread where believers, agnostics and atheists might witness about changes they have found, or are finding in their own mental, emotional or spiritual polarity concerning these things.

I will say that when I came to SDMB I considered myself an atheist and my knee-jerk response to questions of belief in religion or spirituality was liable to be along the lines of “It’s all crap.” Fortunately, I felt no need to express this vehemently, and it wasn’t long until I realized that I could not be comfortable calling myself an atheist because I had not examined, nor was I able to examine the matter rigorously enough to satisfy my mind that I could know that a transcendence (god, if you will) did not exist. And vice versa.

I now call myself an agnostic; a curious one, and I am drawn, like a dog to fence posts, tree trunks and the doorways of working kitchens, to threads discussing these things. I have referred to my agnosticism as a pendulum, and I think of it as such because I do find myself tending to drift in one direction or the other in an almost cyclical pattern as I consider the many and varied discussions.

I am interested in all changes, from the piddling pendular sort like mine to obvious one-way movement in either direction from agnosticism to those involving a full swing from one pole to a full stop at the opposite pole. Have any of you experienced any of these?

I place this in GD because I anticipate that if participation is forthcoming, it will indeed involve witnessing in one form or another.

Sincerely,
Fatwater Fewl
[jm]

2

I have had my faith changed by reading some of the poster’s here. I think there are some outstanding examples of Christian behavior. There are a lot of names to name, but even those I don’t consider to speak the biblical truth, I consider to be instructive and informative-as a result my faith has been challenged/changed in many different ways.

3

Thanks Meatros. Would you be willing to expand on some of those ways?

I’m going to have to go to work shortly, but I will check back in as soon as I return from standing in a doorway checking ids, and such – if only we had an ego check at the bar, some nights would be so much more peaceful …

4

By the way, and I can’t believe I missed this, I’m also interested in whether discussions on this board have worked to strengthen anyone’s belief/disbelief.

5

I have been profoundly changed due directly to discussions here. One that comes to mind immediately is a discussion with Gaudere about her happiness. I was incredulous that she could be happy while being an atheist.

I asked God how this could be, how she could be happy if she is in hell. And God spoke to my heart:

“I am the Love Everlasting. Whatever men say about me with their minds is vapor. I cannot be known by the mind, but only by the heart. Stop dividing the world between theists and atheists, and start dividing it rightly, as I do. There are those who love and those who don’t. Those who love, they are my disciples.”

Although she does not proclaim the existence of God, Gaudere (and many other atheists) have loving hearts and will therefore see the God of Love, while many theists have hearts of stone and will therefore see only their god of stone.

That which we seek is that which we find.

6

I have found that debates on this board have forced me ro re-examine many aspects of my metaphysics. As a result, my ideas are more focused and more coherent than they were when I first stumbled across this congregation of cognoscenti, but the underlying certainties of my existence have not changed.

7

That’s an interesting take on the world, Lib. Your views on “God as Love” were one of the things on my mind when I decided to ask Dopers about these matters.

8

As we used to say in my day, far out! :slight_smile:

9

Since this is on my mind as of late, I will say how something that doesn’t seem constructive is-at least to me.

In GD there are several threads about literalism in the bible. In these threads there are individuals who are very literal when it comes to the bible-something I don’t particularly agree with, and never have.
I used to use a broad brush and just tell myself that they are “confused” to put it lightly. But as time went on I realized that while I might never agree that the bible is meant to be taken very literally that certain sections should be, if not taken literally, they should be carefully examined and scrutinized (by me) in order to find meaning in my life. So, by taking a deeper look at the issue the “literalists” were pushing, I discovered more about myself.

For example: I said “we shouldn’t judge, God does that”. I went off about it in a few threads (slyly, yet hypocritically judging people who judge:smack: ). In any event, I never knew why there would be a good reason to judge. Scotticher, in particular, gave me some very good reasons why someone might judge.

Also I have retooled a lot of my beliefs in regards to, what the bible says and the history of the bible. In threads to numerous to mention, PolyCarp, Libertarian, vanilla, dreamer, Dioynes the cynic, and several others (sorry if I didn’t include anyone) have informed me and changed my faith considerably. My core beliefs have stayed about the same, with several reality checks that have lead me to be a whole hell of a lot more tolerant.
Some recent examples of threads that have changed an aspect of my faith:
This thread clarifies some of the history for me:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=149496

The Judgment thread:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=146974

This thread brought up some issues (to me and I’m sure others) about the “completeness” of the bible:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=153594

This one restored my belief in my fellow man (and woman):
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=151588

There are others to be sure, but is this the type of stuff you wanted me to elaborate on?

10

A lot of things have happened to change my views – insight on different ways to look at a situation, from the people who already look at them those ways. Some examples: Lib, on whether or not one’s individual Christian responsibility to feed the hungry and house the homeless to one’s ability necessarily translates into a social responsibility to support legislation that provides for such feeding and housing at the public expense. Satan, on how support for gay rights does not necessarily entail support for “hate crimes” legislation. Joe Cool, Joey Carmen, and above all Vanilla, on how one can be a caring Christian from an evangelical perspective. Navigator, a good hundred times on a wide variety of topics.

My personal credo may not have changed – but my understanding of the world, and how the people in it can do God’s will in it, has been expanded a hundredfold.

11

Which of my beliefs have changed? My opinion of religious people in general have softened to the point of actual respect, something I definitely didn’t do before, to the point where I actually quit being friends with someone not over any conflict but just what they believed. I have not lost any of my own atheism, however, that wasn’t already in jeapordy.

I have definitely become more liberal (which still isn’t saying much). If it weren’t for the dopers here I don’t think it would have ever happened. I was too much of a Randista (props to Collounsbury for that term) to see much. And this applies not just to opinions on societal organization, but to metaphysics as well. Spiritus Mundi has brought so much to my attention from an analytical philosophy standpoint that I feel quite overwhelmed at times with how much more I would like to look into. And, I am. Unfortunately, the trait of Ayn Rand that resonated most strongly with me—cocky, self-assured but thoroughly specious reasoning—will probably never quite go away, but I do feel like I have the resources to help me understand how I make the mistakes I do.

On a more general note, I was just talking to someone about this earlier today and I think the analogy I made is worth mentioning in this thread. I likened life to a coloring book, and human intellect to a box of crayons. Before I came here, I had those five-color boxes you get at family diners, no sharpener, just five simple colors, and by golly I’d make the picture in the book work in those colors, never really noticing what was missing. Now, I feel like my crayon box is much larger, and I now recognize the subtleties with which one can color in the pages. It could be said this was happening anyway as I am still growing up (I’m only 26, after all), but I definitely credit the SDMB for contributing more. I have changed so much since I’ve been here, it is almost too much to list. I think some posters have noticed (at least, some have said things that indicate it), and I can only hope I continue to grow here. My, err, real life associates could never challenge me like I am challenged here.

In short, my opinions on knowledge and its possibility, morality and its application, and economics and ideal societies have shifted significantly.

12

I, personally, have seen what little of my faith still exists eroded and nearly eradicated by reading the hateful, maliscious and evil posts of His4Ever, Joe_Cool and JerseyDiamond. Even the good people like Lib and Polycarp and CJ can’t overpower with their words of kindness the damage done by the pure hatred those three flood onto the board at the mere mention of gay people or the raising of the obviously-correct notion that the Bible is not a book to be taken literally.

13

I was an atheist when I came here, that hasn’t changed. But the board greatly strengthened my beliefs. Duck Duck Goose, Darwin’s Finch and plenty more, really seem to know what their talking about. I’ve learned a heck of a lot from them and others about religion and it has helped me understand and debunk some some myths associated with Christianity.

14

I’d hate anyone to think I’m overly influenced by a messageboard, but I was an atheist when I signed up, was shaken into agnosticism, and finally became a Christian last spring. Many, many threads and people here influenced me. But of course it was something already inside me which led me to follow those threads and listen to those people.

15

Although I talk about it all the time, I have swung back and forth on the religious pendulum many times over during (and before) my Doper days. I have attempted to embrace agnosticism, fundamentalist Christianity, and various blends of the above at varied times, depending on my influences. My changes aren’t necessarily like a pendulum, but I have felt my faith increase, decrease, change qualitatively, and more.

Short and sweet: things have changed.

16

Yes, thank you very much. These are things I am interested in.

My experience here has been postive overall, as well. And it is because of the tolerance, caring and thinking spoken of by you and others. The thinking is particularly important to me, because it seems that the other things follow from it. Oddly enough.

17

Lib, your post cuts close to the bone. I, too, am coming to the realisation that love, respect and thought are truly where goodness flows from; and what matters is not what name we give to the combination of those things but how willing we are to practise them ourselves.

18

Once again I find thought in the forefront. The ordering and refining of thought, perhaps giving a more certain grasp of those certainties?

(By the way, Spiritus, I mailed a package on Dec. 3, or 4. If you haven’t received it yet, the postal service in one of our countries is to blame. Hope it shows up soon.)

19

Polycarp, thank you. As I said a while ago in a note to Spiritus, there are posters here whose constancy has been an example to me. He’s one, you are another.

20

erislover, I remember you when you were arl. You have changed a bit. But you haven’t stopped thinking. You , too, have become more focused. And, my friend, more coherent.

These are all important to me (though I think about economics least), but I’m glad you mentioned morality. This is something else I’ve been forced to think more rigorously about; the morals and ethics of everyday life, of my everyday life.