Has wine always been alcholic?

[Chekmate]

I was tlakingto someone today who claimed that it wasn’t back in the day (roughly 0 A.D.), because the didn’t ferment it. He didn’t provide any cites, so I thought I would come to the dopers for answers. What’s the dope? Got a cite I can show him? Thanks.

[bup]

That would be grape juice.

There’s plenty of references in the bible to not drinking too much wine, lest you get drunk.

There was also an article in Scientific American a couple of years ago (sorry, don’t know the specific issue), about how wine was used, mixed with lots of water, that long ago, because they knew it made the water safe - the alcohol killed harmful bacteria in the water.

[toadspittle]

I would say that he’s wrong. BUT, wine hasn’t always been as alcoholic as it is now–it was more akin to current beer ABV levels, IIRC.

Genesis 9 (KJV)

[20] And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
[21] And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

At least as far back as when this part of Genesis was recorded.
Besides which, I’m fairly certain “they didn’t ferment it” wouldn’t have been much of an option. Without refrigeration, the wild yeast living on the grapes would start fermentation whether you liked it or not. Go get a bunch of grapes, crush them in a bowl, and leave it out on the counter for a few days and see what happens.

[Celyn]

Che
kmate Does your aquaintance imangine that somehow the mean of fermentation had not been “discovered”? Heck, I think the Greeks and Romans etc were pretty familiar with wine.

Although as I went off to search for a sensible site to link to, I was astonished how popular your friend’s view seems to be among certain people!

[toadspittle]

I would say that he’s wrong. BUT, wine hasn’t always been as alcoholic as it is now–it was more akin to current beer ABV levels, IIRC.

Genesis 9 (KJV)

[20] And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
[21] And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

At least as far back as when this part of Genesis was recorded.
Besides which, I’m fairly certain “they didn’t ferment it” wouldn’t have been much of an option. Without refrigeration, the wild yeast living on the grapes would start fermentation whether you liked it or not. Go get a bunch of grapes, crush them in a bowl, and leave it out on the counter for a few days and see what happens.

[RealityChuck]

The opposite was true. It wasn’t until 1869 that Dr. Thomas Welch was able to market the first unfermented grape juice. Before that, any grape juice not drunk immediately fermented (lots of sugar, and yeast clumps on the outside of the ripe grapes).

[Celyn]

The reference to “0 A.D” suggests some of of Christian welantschuung on the part of thios person. So, for a time when alcholhol was unkown and only unfermented juice existed, it is funny how much alchohol gets mentioned in the Bible.

From http://www.twopaths.com/faq_alcohol.htm

**

There is nothing in either the Old or New Testament that opposes the moderate use of alcoholic beverages; they were a staple of everyday life.

Drunkenness, however, is strongly opposed in both the Old and New Testaments:

Woe to those who rise early in the morning that they may pursue strong drink, Who stay up late in the evening that wine may inflame them! Their banquets are accompanied by lyre and harp, by tambourine and flute, and by wine; But they do not pay attention to the deeds of the LORD, Nor do they consider the work of His hands. (NASU, Isaiah 5:11-12)

Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise. (NASU, Proverbs 20:1)

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. (NIV, Luke 21:34)

Don’t be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, let the Holy Spirit fill and control you. (NLT, Ephesians 5:18)

Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. (NASU, Romans 13:13)

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (NIV, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10) **

[toadspittle]

Sorry for the double post. Too much … grape juice …

[kniz]

Yes, the reference to 0 A.D. pretty much identifies the source of this piece of misinformation. Why would Christians want to spread the word that wine was unfermented? Simple! Because the first miracle that Jesus performed was changing water to wine. If it was alcoholic how can this be explained? :rolleyes: [sup] Well, you see back then wine was not fermented (and don’t confuse things by quoting the O.T.)[/sup]