In his article “Why do men take their hats off to show respect but women don’t?” (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhatsoff.html), Songbird writes:
Poor guy! Or could it be that you meant “coiffure”?
In his article “Why do men take their hats off to show respect but women don’t?” (http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhatsoff.html), Songbird writes:
Poor guy! Or could it be that you meant “coiffure”?
Songbird also said:
So what is a man’s hat considered? And even if we agree that a man’s hat is more utilitarian and less a part of his costume, why would that matter? I know, I know … “it’s always been done that way.”
P.S. - among Jews, it is considered a show of disrespect to leave the head uncovered (at least in a house of worship). Are there other cultures that consider wearing of hats as being a show of respect?
The pracice of men tipping their hats has its origins in medieval times when armored knights, when approaching, would lift their face visors to reveal that they were friend, not foe.
Considering just how often one sees a gentleman wearing a hat, much less tipping a hat, it is amazing that this question would even surface in this millennium.
To remove the hat or leave it on?
This highly instructive video explores the question in detail…
::grinning ducking & running::
One other thing I have read is that it is men’s hats that need to be removed, not simply the hats that are being worn by men. If a woman is wearing a man’s hat or unisex cap (baseball cap, cowboy hat) it should be taken off as a sign of respect as well.
YES! Now I can wear that floppy pastel bridesmaid’s hat and I won’t have to take it off for the Nat. Anth. ('Course, I might attract a few stares…)
Only for afternoon games.
Any hat that’s floppy and pastel should disappear at dusk to be replaced by an evening hat.
So is a beret a unisex hat? Or is it a woman’s hat when worn by a woman? Or does it depend if you’re wearing it in some sort of artsy painter fashion? What about berets as part of a uniform (military or otherwise)? Woo, what about any hat as part of a woman’s uniform?
My personal rule, which seems to work most of the time, is that I only keep on the hats that I need a mirror to get back on neatly if I take them off. Anything that can have a ponytail stuffed in it comes off indoors, for flag saluting, etc.
Corr
“Cowboys and Jews have a common bond. They’re the only two groups to wear their hats indoors and attach a certain importance to it.”
Could it not also stem from the fact that men remove their hats in church and women leave them on… what would the origin of this be?
The etiquette deal on this is that men have always removed their hats when they were indoors and when showing respect (as when saluting the flag or tipping one’s hat to a lady). Women traditionally have not done so for any of these reasons. Why? Mostly because, as the Staff Report said, a lady’s hat was considered a part of her ensemble. Taking a lady’s hat on and off was a big fuss – often they were attached with big old hat pins. There was also a real possibility of the hairdo under the hat being mussed, and also the question of where to put a great big elaborate hat if it wasn’t being worn on the head. These problems were less important to men, who wore simpler and smaller hats and who kept their hair short and neat and less prone to hat hair. Nor were men expected to need access to a mirror to replace their hats properly.
Of course, etiquette changes over time, as does fashion. And, Miss Manners (my favored etiquette authority) has kept up with the times. According to our dear Miss M, it is perfectly permissible for a lady to follow the old fashioned hat rule, so long as she is really following it. A lady wearing a lady’s hat – the fancy jobs that match your outfit and are rarely seen these days outside of church – may wear her hat inside and even wear it when she salutes the flag. A lady wearing a man’s hat – a ball cap or something – should treat it as a gentleman would treat it and take it off for the flag or inside a restaurant.
Jess
OK, the way the rabbi explained it to me was that baring your head was a sign of arrogance, based partly on the idea of original sin and partly on the idea that all men should humble themselves before their God. Showing your bare head was like going “nya, nya, nya” at heaven. (The rabbi didn’t do the noises.)
I believe there are similar traditions in Islam, but you’ll have to ask the Muslim Guy, who is in fact an expert in his field. It is a Western/European Tradition to remove your hat, as previously posted. Other semitic cultures feel free to chime in!
wait a minute…i thought the bible said it was shameful for WOMEN to leave the head uncovered in a house of worship–thus we have stories of women getting their heads shaved as a punishment for some sin. am i mixing up my old and new testaments here?
OK, before I get on my high horse, I must admit that i have no authority to quote that anyone can verify - but I’m at work and some of youse guys probably ain’t, so YOU go dig up your dusty books!
Now, back to ranting: Jon, you gotta look up the original if you want to find the real duties imposed upon the faithful. There have been millennia of people interpreting the bible(s) into orders for the unwashed masses (maybe too close to saying teeming millions, eh?), so if you want to actually find the real Thou Shalt, you gotta go look! I won’t even start with the willful retranslation of ancient texts [sub]- Oy vey[/sub]!!
Personally, my wife loves wondrous hats, so I say she can wear 'em anytime she wants!
Emily Post, in her 1922 book Etiquette, says, “It is not necessary to add that every American male citizen stands with his hat off at the passing of the ‘colors’ and when the national anthem is played. If he didn’t, some other more loyal citizen would take it off for him.”
Interesting. So Emily Post is now advocating bad manners as the appropriate response to bad manners? Sorry, but I reject this as a principle. If I wish to protest patriotic displays by not doffing my hat, what right is it of yours to take my hat? You are now violating my rights to expression and safety of self. And where does it end? If I refuse to stand for the flag, does that mean you should now force me to stand? Grab me by the arms and stand me up? Exert violence? I think this advice should remain in 1922.
If she’s asked to remove it by someone having difficulty seeing beyond her, she should do it immediately with murmured apologies."
Why should the apologies be murmured? That gives the impression they are not sincere, and not really meant. If one wishes to apologize, one should do so fully, correct? I suppose if you’re in the middle of a ceremony or performance, a whisper is fine because of the situation, but if the actual event hasn’t started yet, why murmur?
Emily Post, in her 1922 book Etiquette, says, "It is not necessary to add that every American male citizen stands with his hat off at the passing of the ‘colors’ and when the national anthem is played.
I see something wrong here. If i’m not mistaken, the U.S. didn’t have a national anthem in 1922, at least not an official one. The Star Spangled Banner was officially made the national anthem in 1931 (give or take…i’m not positive). Any ideas on that?
originally posted by BPBob
Now, back to ranting: Jon, you gotta look up the original if you want to find the real duties imposed upon the faithful. There have been millennia of people interpreting the bible(s) into orders for the unwashed masses (maybe too close to saying teeming millions, eh?), so if you want to actually find the real Thou Shalt, you gotta go look! I won’t even start with the willful retranslation of ancient texts
this is one of those times i wish i knew hebrew. damn. i’ll try to look it up in the good ol’ NIV but i’m sure that won’t be good enough for most here. and to clarify, my memory sucks. i have read the bible several times (in english, shame shame) but i was actually basing my last post on a film entitled “Jesus”. laughable, yes, but supposedly the film is straight from the gospel of Luke.
whoops, looks like i wrote that last post too quickly. i meant i was going by the film “Jesus” and my knowledge of the old testament. the film had a part where Jesus put a cloth over his head while reading from Isaiah, thus my memory was jogged. citing a film called “Jesus” wouldn’t be much of a good argument when the issue is judaism, if i didn’t explain that.
Irishman, you’re not serious, are you? Emily Post was not advocating anyone doing anything. She was simply stating what was, in fact, likely to happen to anyone who didn’t treat the symbols of his homeland with proper respect. That no one today would even imagine removing a man’s hat for him may be because our society has become so polite and respectful that everyone rightly agrees with you that we shouldn’t try to correct rude behaviour with force, or else because no one knows or cares enough about showing proper respect to be offended. I’m afraid I find the latter more plausible. If Mrs. Post didn’t seem to muster quite the dissaproving tone you think she should have in referring to the “more loyal citizen,” it is at least partly because, like her successor Judith Martin (Miss Manners), she wrote with humor and wit as well as authority. She was being funny.
Oh, yes, and appologies should be murmured because it would be rude to speak at full voice during the national anthem.
Alan Smithee said:
If Mrs. Post didn’t seem to muster quite the dissaproving tone you think she should have in referring to the “more loyal citizen,” it is at least partly because, like her successor Judith Martin (Miss Manners), she wrote with humor and wit as well as authority. She was being funny.
Apparently I’ve lost all sense of humor. This is the third time in 2 days that I’ve gotten “It’s a joke, son” as a response. Maybe I just didn’t see it in context, but it didn’t seem funny to me. Or maybe it’s because as a kid I wore a ball cap a lot, and constantly had to put up with other kids taking it from me to tease me. Or maybe it’s because I remember reading this:
http://chnm.gmu.edu/courses/hist409/flag.html
CHICAGOANS CHEER TAR WHO SHOT MAN
Sailor Wounds Pageant Spectator Disrespectful to Flag.Chicago, May 6 - Disrespect for the American flag and a show of resentment toward the thousands who participated in a victory loan pageant here tonight may cost George Goddard his life. He was shot down by a sailor of the United States navy when he did not stand and remove his hat while the band was playing the “Star-Spangled Banner.”
I guess in this case I feel justified not thinking of it as merely a joke.
Oh, yes, and appologies should be murmured because it would be rude to speak at full voice during the national anthem.
Reread the article. The apology was not during the national anthem, but anytime a lady is wearing a hat that blocks the view of someone behind her. Like I said, if during a ceremony or presentation or event, then murmuring would be appropriate to not be loud and boistrous and interrupt the show for others. But if the event hasn’t actually started and people are just getting situated, then the apology should be conversational, not mumbled. Maybe I just read that wrong, too.