Hate literature placed in my hotel room by the Gideons....what should I do?

The BBQ Pit
221

[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]

Some argue for Matthew for having the best chance of the Gospel writers of having been a Jewish-Christian, but GMatt is schizophrenic enough (it contains some seemingly pro-Jewish, pro-Israel elements as well) as to make the issue cloudy. There is a decent chance that it was the product of a Jewish-Christian community which had some context-specific grievances against Pharisaic Jews (eventually the basis for Rabbinic Judaism), which wre not intended to be seen as universal.
[/QUOTE]

You know the saying “Heretics are worse than infidels”? If Matt. was written by Jewish Christians, it would make sense that it was especially negative against those Jews who “rejected” Jesus, because they “should have known the truth”.

222

[QUOTE=Shodan]
So your assertion that the author was Gentile is based on nothing.
[/quote]

No, it’s based on plenty. If you really want to get into it, I will. I already gave some indications as to why it is safe to make that assumption. Just starting from zero, we know that the vast majority of the world was not Jewish at the time, so the statistical likelihood of any random person being Jewish was very low. We also know that the book was written in a Gentile language in a Gentile location to a Gentile audience. When you add in the decidedly un-Jewish claims, the discussion of Jews as “they,” and the ignorance of Jewish laws and practices, you have an extremely uphill battle to prove your arbitrary assertion that they were Jewish (a claim the authors do not even make for themselves, by the way).

Congratulations, you caught me in a careless mistake. What I meant to say was that every book but the 7 authentic letters of paul were written after 70 CE. I’ve already stipulated that Paul was Jewish.

Abd I said MOST of the authors were gentiles, not all.

As I stated above, when you start from zero, you’re starting with an extreme statistical probability that any random person was not Jewish. That puts the burden to prove Jewishness on the person making the claim. The odds are not equal. For all the reasons I’ve already listed (location, language, theology, lack of internal claims to Jewishness, anti-Jewish polemic, ignorance of Jewish beliefs and practices), the burden to overcome that default assumption that the authors can be assumed to be Gentile cannot be overcome with any credibility.

The burden is on YOU to show a positive argument for identifying these theologically un-Jewish – even anti-Jewish – Greek speaking, Hellenistic authors as Jewish. There is no evidentiary indication that they should be assumed to belong to that statistically miniscule fraction of the population which these authors refer to as “they,” whom they bash, whose language they do not speak (we know this because they quote exclusively from the Greek Septuagint rather than the Hebrew Bible), and whom they make no claim to be part of.

223

Getting back to the op.

People who are reasonably devout Christians and who believe in the Bible are the ones who will read the Bible.

Personally I have never ever come across a non religious person who while staying in a hotel has decided to read the Bible for pleasure or even to pass the time when bored stupid.
I’m not saying that there aren’t any but I suspect that the number is miniscule to say the least.

My experience of human nature is that people who DO read the book for self improvement,solace etc.carry their own personal Bible with them,not read some cheapo freebie in the place that they are dossing for the night.

So nobody is going to pick the thing up and just by chance open and read it at the line/paragraph whatever in the thousand upon thousand of pages that make up the volume where the offending sentiments are apparently written and then suddenly think OMG gays are evil and we should do something about them.

They may have thought it before,they may even have thought it before for entirely non religious reasons.

Bibles are found in an incredible number of places Churches,homes.libraries,bookshops,on line etc. so it would be pretty much an excercise in futility just banning the Gideons.

My main point though is that anyone in a minority that suffers from oppression trivialises the genuine persecution and prejudices that others suffer when they make specious complaints for no serious reason other then to enjoy feeling like a martyr or even just wallowing in a bit of self pity.

People not of the minority tend to lose sympathy AND patience after a while and stop listening even when its some other poor sod who is genuinly suffering real pain.

The OP has underminded his/hers own cause.
If that is all they’ve got to complain about then things must be going pretty good for them ,not to mention that they’ve got too much time on their hands.

Try looking out for those people who are hurting as a result of actual as opposed to perceived hate whether from your own people or other minorities.
The usual disclaimers,I’m not a member of any minority,am not anti gay,am not religious and am not being persecuted.

224

[QUOTE=Lust4Life]
Personally I have never ever come across a non religious person who while staying in a hotel has decided to read the Bible for pleasure or even to pass the time when bored stupid.
I’m not saying that there aren’t any but I suspect that the number is miniscule to say the least.

My experience of human nature is that people who DO read the book for self improvement,solace etc.carry their own personal Bible with them,not read some cheapo freebie in the place that they are dossing for the night.

So nobody is going to pick the thing up and just by chance open and read it at the line/paragraph whatever in the thousand upon thousand of pages that make up the volume where the offending sentiments are apparently written and then suddenly think OMG gays are evil and we should do something about them.
[/QUOTE]
It’s been a while since I’ve looked at a Gideon Bible, but if I remember correctly, some, at least, of the ones that get put in hotel rooms have material at the front directing readers to specific favorite passages or to specific verses that might be relevant to specific situations (e.g. Here are some passages you can read if you’re feeling lonely… or guilt-ridden… or grieving… etc.)

225

Incidentally, The American Poetry & Literacy Project donates books of poems to hotels and other public places. They aren’t as well funded as Gideons though.

226

[QUOTE=Measure for Measure]
Incidentally, The American Poetry & Literacy Project donates books of poems to hotels and other public places. They aren’t as well funded as Gideons though.
[/QUOTE]

Ok, now I’m seriously pissed. Goddamned POETS. Putting their self-absorbed rhymy shit where other people can find it. Leaves of Grass my fucking ASS! See? That was a fucking poem!

:wink:

227

[QUOTE=LVgeogeek]

And they do make warning stickers for placing on bibles as seen here and here.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you for those labels. I stay in many hotels over a year and I can promise you, if the Gideons can leave this hate-filled book of myths in a hotel room that I am paying for with my gay but hard-earned money, then I can leave those stickers on their books.

I swear, if you can’t find it on the internet, it don’t exist! :smiley:

228

I heard a story once about a little old lady who telephoned her local police station with a complaint of an offence against public decency. It seemed she was being plagued with persistent exposure to naked men, specifically large hairy footballers in the changing room of the local club. So the police went around to her house, and discovered that it was two hundred yards up the road from the football club and the changing rooms were obscured behind a large advertising hoarding. “I’m sorry, madam,” said the officer politely, “but I don’t even see how you can possibly see any footballers getting changed from here.”

“Well,” she said, “if you climb up on top of the wardrobe with these binoculars…”

Now, if you know exactly where to look in the Bible you may trip on a couple of verses that offend gay sensibilities, but only a screeching little attention whore would adduce from this that the entire volume was a “hate-filled book of myth” given the amount of hard work you have to go to in order to be offended. :rolleyes:

229

Were the naked hairy men distributing a book with a passage about killing little old ladies, or is your story relevant in some other way that I’m not getting?

230

Um, was that a pre-coffee post, Princhester?

The post you’re referring to was a joke. A joke about someone going out of her way to be offended. Kind of like a certain OP of a certain thread?

ETA: oh, you’re halfway around the world. Well then replace “pre-coffee” with “post-beer.”

231

[QUOTE=neutron star]
Um, was that a pre-coffee post, Princhester?
[/quote]

No. It was an I’m-at-work-late post. It was also intentionally disingenous. I know what he was trying to say, I was just making a point.

Yes. A joke entirely. All of it. Including the :rolleyes: at the end, right?

Kind of like. But not really. That’s my point.

232

[QUOTE=Princhester]
Were the naked hairy men distributing a book with a passage about killing little old ladies, or is your story relevant in some other way that I’m not getting?
[/QUOTE]

You’re an arsehead, aren’t you? As correctly observed, the story was about a little old lady trying really hard to see some naked men in order to be offended by them - rather like memorising the exact chapter and verse in Leviticus where you can find an injunction to execute men who have sex with men, and then claiming emotional distress just because there happens to be a Bible in your hotel room.

The rolleyes wasn’t a joke - the rolleyes was a sign of exasperation mingled with contempt over the OP’s determination to get up on that cross. But I can spare some more for you if that would be helpful.

I’d like to think you found it necessary to chime in because you’re really, really concerned with gay rights and you work tirelessly for the benefit of your less fortunate fellow man, but I find it easier, don’t ask me why, to believe that you do it because you have to snark on religion any chance you get.

233

[QUOTE=Princhester]
That’s my point.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, okay. Your point is that you’re being a deliberately obtuse dickhead. Gotcha.

234

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
As correctly observed, the story was about a little old lady trying really hard to see some naked men in order to be offended by them
[/quote]

The little old lady could not be affected by the hairy naked men except by her deliberate efforts. She absolutely could not be. That’s the joke.

It’s not the same as there being a widely published book that many people say comprises information on appropriate behaviour that contains instructions to kill certain people of which the OP is one. It could effect the OP. It’s unlikely, but it could. The nonchalant social acceptance of the book as evidenced by such matters as its unquestioned placement in Western hotel rooms can do nothing but give support to the type of anti-gay religious people that take support from the book in question.

And by the way, feel free to pretend I attacked your motivations and called you names in my above post. I’ll pretend the same in relation to any response you may care to make. That way, we can all save some typing, and the end result will be the same. Thanks ever so.

235

[QUOTE=Princhester]
It’s not the same as there being a widely published book that many people say comprises information on appropriate behaviour that contains instructions to kill certain people of which the OP is one. It could effect the OP. It’s unlikely, but it could. The nonchalant social acceptance of the book as evidenced by such matters as its unquestioned placement in Western hotel rooms can do nothing but give support to the type of anti-gay religious people that take support from the book in question.
[/QUOTE]

Do you seriously think that someone is going to see Valteron and his sweetheart, then look at the drawer of their hotel dresser inside which the Bible (Latin word for KILL TEH GAYS, or didn’t you know?) lurks secretly, then stride out and say: “This hotel says I should kill you!” and bash their heads in with one of those brass lamps?

You’ve been told over and over and over that religious people are not all anti-gay. It’s like you have some strange mental image of the United States where we all get together at teatime, round up the boys who dress too pretty, and burn them for barbecue. I live in a conservative part of the country, I go to church at what is, I believe, the oldest existing Episcopalian church west of the Mississippi, and it’s not just acceptance of homosexuality that gets preached from the pulpit. We’ve had sermons from the former dean of the Episcopal seminary in my city stating baldly, outright, for the record, that regardless of any beliefs held by some parishoners, gay people and their families are welcome at the church and should be just as loved and accepted as anyone else. Are equal to everyone else. Deserve equal respect. He taught the same thing in my confirmation class.

Yes, there are all sorts of bigots who use religion as an excuse to hate people.

So do you.

You use the existence of religion as an excuse to hate people.

And yes, you’ll dance around saying “Cite where I said I hated anyone! I never said I hated anyone, I only said…” as if there was some kind of award for being obtuse.

Facts is facts. It’s a bit unfortunate, because you and I agree on a good bit of stuff. Just so long as it has nothing to do with religion.

“But the book says – !” The book also says cotton-poly blends are evil.

“But it’s right there, and people could get the wrong idea!” People can get the wrong idea from a Beatles song.

"Ah, but the Beatles song doesn’t actually SAY – " And there’s question as to what the Bible actually says, and lots people kind of cough at Leviticus anyway.

“Then they’re cherrypicking!” You’d prefer they were all rabid anti-homosexuals?

Then again, I guess you would prefer that. Your arguments would have some meaning then, and they’d be backed up by reasonable people.

236

[QUOTE=Princhester]
And by the way, feel free to pretend I attacked your motivations and called you names in my above post. I’ll pretend the same in relation to any response you may care to make. That way, we can all save some typing, and the end result will be the same. Thanks ever so.
[/QUOTE]

Did you read the name on the forum when you came in? As to your motivations, they’re transparent, and we both know it, and there’s not an ounce of point in your squealing when you get called on it.

237

Did you see this nasty nasty hate speech? It’s all over the Internet!

I mean, it’s everywhere!
Have these people no shame?!?!?!?!!

Hate speech! Hate speech!

HATE SPEECH IS TEH AYVIL!!!twenty-five!!!
I’m never going near teh intarwebz again!
Or Europe!
Hate speech!
Hate speech!

:smiley:

238

The allegation that I am going out of my way to be offended by the admonition to kill gays that appears in Leviticus (as well as Paul’s anti-gay references) ignores some very basic facts.

The anti references in the Bible are not some irelevant, ancient texts known only to a few historians. They are DAILY used to beat gays over the head. They are REGULARLY quoted by religious conservatives opposing gay rights before legislators throughout the world.

Homophobic hell-holes like Jamaica, where homosexual activity can be punished by 10 years hard labour and where crowds celebrate the lynchings of persons suspected of being gay while police look on and laugh, justify their positions by saying that they have a right to their Christian heritage.

Whenever we would put up signs fo a gay dance in my city, someone would scrawl “Romans, 1:26” (look it up) all over our posters. Pride parades throughout the world are regularly picketed by Christians holding up signs quoting Leviticus and Romans 1:26).

Try a visit to the Westboro Baptist Church at this God Hates Fags site and see what book this group quotes. The very same book that the Gideons left in my hotel room.

If you think this is the same as the little old lady who used binoculars to see the naked football team, you need to re-examine your analogies for accuracy. What the little old lady saw through her binoculars was naked men (yum!) not footballers holding up a sign saying “kill little old ladies.”

239

[QUOTE=Little Plastic Ninja]
Do you seriously think that someone is going to see Valteron and his sweetheart, . . . . . .
[/QUOTE]

I notice you use the term “sweetheart” to describe my spouse. (Which is downright ridiculous as a description of two men, one 60 and one 54). He is in fact my spouse, legally wed under the laws of Canada. Do you have a problem calling him that?

And no, I do not think that anyone who reads the Gideon Bible in the hotel will bash our heads in immediately. But I do know that in places like Jamaica, Africa, Latin America and many religious areas of the US, the Bible is regularly quoted as the justification for anti-gay oppression and even murder.

240

Appeal to “God Hates Fags”, huh? So if some vile nutbar quotes something, the thing he quotes is tainted by association; and not only the thing he quotes, but the entire work it appears in; and hence, even to be forced, forced I tell you! to be in the same place as the work in question is odious, opprobrious, and a bunch of other things beginning with “o” and ending in “ious”. Got it.

The part that’s the same is the part about going to ridiculous extremes to find something to be offended about. Analogies don’t have to be watertight at all points.

Time enough to snivel about the Gideon Bible in the hotel when they do, then. You really think that a significant number of hotel goers pick up the GB, read Lev. 18:22 and think “Well, dayum! Never thought about it before, but now I’ve read all that stuff about uncleanness, I’m darned if I don’t gotta go out and bash me some faggot!”? Indeed, do you think one fewer queer-beating would happen if every single Gideon Bible was disappeared overnight?