Hate literature placed in my hotel room by the Gideons....what should I do?

[Algher]

@Don't Call Me Shirley

Wow, this must be that “first stone” I’ve read about. How thrilling it must be for you to be without sin.

No, it is a response to a bullshit phrase that is an attempt to completely mischaracterize my faith.

[Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley]

@Algher

No, it is a response to a bullshit phrase that is an attempt to completely mischaracterize my faith.

Then I guess you would have no problem providing a cite that I mischaracterized your faith. For example, a cite that christians pay the same consequences for their sins that non-christians pay would do nicely.

[Algher]

@Don't Call Me Shirley

Then I guess you would have no problem providing a cite that I mischaracterized your faith. For example, a cite that christians pay the same consequences for their sins that non-christians pay would do nicely.

This statement is the bullshit one, from post 336:

Actually, it doesn’t go without saying, because christians don’t believe in personal accountability. The entire religion is based upon somebody else paying the price for their sins.

I have NEVER believed, nor heard from the pulpit, that we are not accountable for our sinning. We ARE taught that that we must accept God’s Grace. But that has NEVER been tied into a message that we are not accountable for our actions. In fact, we sing “They will know we are Christians by our love.”

James 2:17-18 (New International Version)
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

You are taking the belief that the only way to wash away all sins is through God’s grace and making that mean that we have no accountability. That is wrong.

[Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley]

@Algher

This statement is the bullshit one, from post 336:
I have NEVER believed, nor heard from the pulpit, that we are not accountable for our sinning. We ARE taught that that we must accept God’s Grace. But that has NEVER been tied into a message that we are not accountable for our actions. In fact, we sing “They will know we are Christians by our love.”

James 2:17-18 (New International Version)
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

You are taking the belief that the only way to wash away all sins is through God’s grace and making that mean that we have no accountability. That is wrong.

So, no cite that christians and non-christians suffer different consequences for their sins? Your non-cite here does not even begin to answer the question. Let me help you a little bit here.

For my sins, I will burn in an everlasting lake of fire for all eternity. I will beg for a drop of water to be placed on my tongue and this request will be refused. Torture. For eternity. This is the punishment I must pay for my sins. This is ME taking responsibility for MY sins.

What punishment will you be paying for your sins? If the answer is different from how I will be paying for my sins, then christians don’t have to take personal responsibility. If you believe that Jesus paid the price for your sins, you do not take personal responsibility.

Notice how I pay the price for my sins, but someone else pays the price for yours? That is the opposite of taking personal responsibility.

To me, this is so blatantly obvious I can’t believe anyone could possibly argue with it. But christians are so gung-ho on “personal responsibility” (when forcing others to take responsibility for what they do) they get really pissed when it’s pointed out that they are not taking personal responsibility for their own sins, but dumping the responsibility onto Jesus.

[Algher]

@Don't Call Me Shirley

So, no cite that christians and non-christians suffer different consequences for their sins? Your non-cite here does not even begin to answer the question. Let me help you a little bit here.

For my sins, I will burn in an everlasting lake of fire for all eternity. I will beg for a drop of water to be placed on my tongue and this request will be refused. Torture. For eternity. This is the punishment I must pay for my sins. This is ME taking responsibility for MY sins.

What punishment will you be paying for your sins? If the answer is different from how I will be paying for my sins, then christians don’t have to take personal responsibility. If you believe that Jesus paid the price for your sins, you do not take personal responsibility.

Notice how I pay the price for my sins, but someone else pays the price for yours? That is the opposite of taking personal responsibility.

To me, this is so blatantly obvious I can’t believe anyone could possibly argue with it. But christians are so gung-ho on “personal responsibility” (when forcing others to take responsibility for what they do) they get really pissed when it’s pointed out that they are not taking personal responsibility for their own sins, but dumping the responsibility onto Jesus.

If you had the reading comprehension of the average middle school child, combined with the civility of the average elementary school child, you MIGHT have picked out two points from my prior posts:

1. I, and many other Christians, do not believe in Hell.
2. Your characterization of personal responsibility does not match what Christians are told to do. I gave you a nice, short little Bible verse to read. It specifically showcases the need for Christians to be known by their actions.

Yes, our sins are paid for by Christ WHEN WE ACCEPT HIS MESSAGE. Guess what, part of that acceptance is repentance and an admission of guilt. Part of that acceptance is changing our ways. Part of that acceptance is stepping forward and doing our best to sin no more.

You can take your Freshman Philosophy 101 nonsense and possibly earn a B at the local communication college, but it will still be bullshit.

[Lord_Ashtar]

People, please. Take your hijack elsewhere. This thread is for helping Valteron decide how best to handle the hate literature the Gideons left in his hotel room.

[Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley]

@Algher

1. I, and many other Christians, do not believe in Hell.

If you had the reading comprehension of a middle school child, you would know that the bible is quite clear on the subject of hell. It exists and unsaved people go there, according to the bible. It’s not ambiguous on the subject.

If you don’t believe in hell, do you believe in heaven? Why do you believe in heaven? Because it is described in the bible? If so, how can you not believe in hell, which is also described in the bible?

I’ll rephrase for you. As punishment for my sins, when I die I will cease to exist. This is how I will be punished for sin, and is a good example of ME taking responsibility for MY sin. Notice how I am both the person who sins, and the person who pays the consequences for the sin. That’s kind of the definition of personal responsibility.

When you die, you will go to heaven, even though you sinned. This is because Jesus paid the penalty for your sin. Notice how, in your situation, YOU commit the sin but Jesus pays the consequences for it. This is the opposite of personal responsibility.

It does not really matter what the consequences are, in the scope of this discussion. Your desperate fixation on my description of the consequences as “hell” is just your grasping at semantic straws to avoid the crux of the matter. The real point is, whatever you believe the consequences of sin to be, be it hell, non-existence, or having buzzards tear out your innards for eternity, christians don’t have to pay those consequences. Jesus pays them for you. That is not personal responsibility.

[Weirddave]

@Don't Call Me Shirley

If you had the reading comprehension of a middle school child, you would know that the bible is quite clear on the subject of hell. It exists and unsaved people go there, according to the bible. It’s not ambiguous on the subject.

Actually, it’s quite ambiguous. If you read the relevant passages in Revelations, it says that the Anti-Christ will burn in a lake of fire for eternity, but non-Christians are tossed into the lake where they are consumed utterly. Belief in hell as a place of eternal torment for mere mortals is a juxtaposition of the two verses.

[Malthus]

@Don't Call Me Shirley

If you had the reading comprehension of a middle school child, you would know that the bible is quite clear on the subject of hell. It exists and unsaved people go there, according to the bible. It’s not ambiguous on the subject.

I’m no Christian, but I once got interested in the notion of “hell” and tried to track it down in the Bible. There really isn’t much on the topic.

There is Revelations:

11I saw a great white throne with someone sitting on it. Earth and heaven tried to run away, but there was no place for them to go. 12I also saw all the dead people standing in front of that throne. Every one of them was there, no matter who they had once been. Several books were opened, and then the book of life [a] was opened. The dead were judged by what those books said they had done. 13The sea gave up the dead people who were in it, and death and its kingdom also gave up their dead. Then everyone was judged by what they had done. 14Afterwards, death and its kingdom were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death. ** 15Anyone whose name wasn’t written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

And there is Romans 6:23:

23Sin pays off with death. But God’s gift is eternal life given by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The threat can easily be construed as the threat of death, not eternal suffering in a place called “hell”. The latter seems a later elaboration.

[Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley]

To Malthus and WeirdDave:

Luke 16 is pretty clear on the matter.

ETA: so is Matthew 25

[Autolycus]

Let’s play Scripture Wars. Everyone loses. Hurray!

[Malthus]

@Don't Call Me Shirley

To Malthus and WeirdDave:

Luke 16 is pretty clear on the matter.

ETA: so is Matthew 25

Luke 16:

19"There was a rich man who was clothed in(W) purple and fine linen and(X) who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate(Y) was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who desired to be fed with(Z) what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by(AA) the angels(AB) to Abraham’s side.[f] The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in(AC) Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and(AD) saw Abraham far off and Lazarus(AE) at his side. 24And he called out,(AF) ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and(AG) cool my tongue, for(AH) I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that(AI) you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers[g]—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29But Abraham said, ‘They have(AJ) Moses and the Prophets;(AK) let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No,(AL) father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31He said to him, ‘If they do not hear(AM) Moses and the Prophets,(AN) neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’"

and

Matthew 25:

31(AI) “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him,(AJ) then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him(AK) will be gathered(AL) all the nations, and(AM) he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates(AN) the sheep from the goats. 33And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34Then(AO) the King will say to(AP) those on his right, ‘Come, you(AQ) who are blessed by my Father,(AR) inherit(AS) the kingdom(AT) prepared for you(AU) from the foundation of the world. 35For(AV) I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you(AW) gave me drink,(AX) I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36(AY) I was naked and you clothed me,(AZ) I was sick and you(BA) visited me,(BB) I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40And(BC) the King will answer them,(BD) ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these(BE) my brothers,[f] you did it to me.’
41"Then he will say to those on his left,(BF) ‘Depart from me, you(BG) cursed, into(BH) the eternal fire prepared for(BI) the devil and his angels. 42For(BJ) I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these,(BK) you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away(BL) into eternal punishment, but the righteous(BM) into eternal life.”

What is interesting to me is that they are different. There are at least three visions of hell:

1. In Revelations and Romans, the threat is “death” (as opposed to eternal life). The judgment takes place at the end of the world - the good live forever and the bad get destroyed.

2. In Luke, the dead rich guy goes to a place of torment right away (we know this because he wants to come back and warn his family not to be nasty like he was and reap the same fate).

3. In Matthew, like in Revelations, the judgment happens at the end of the world, not now; but unlike Revelations, it is now obvious that a place of eternal torment is meant.

Seems to me that the gospels are a trifle ambiguous when it comes to the afterlife.

[Autolycus]

@Don't Call Me Shirley

If you had the reading comprehension of a middle school child, you would know that the bible is quite clear on the subject of hell. It exists and unsaved people go there, according to the bible. It’s not ambiguous on the subject.

Your interpretation of the Bible is as literal and fundie as the people you seem to despise.

If you don’t believe in hell, do you believe in heaven? Why do you believe in heaven? Because it is described in the bible? If so, how can you not believe in hell, which is also described in the bible?

I personally believe in both, but I highly doubt hell is a lake of fire, and I have no clue what heaven will be like experientially. Again, there are denominations of Christianity, many I believe, that do not believe that heaven and hell are something straight from Dante.

I’ll rephrase for you. As punishment for my sins, when I die I will cease to exist. This is how I will be punished for sin, and is a good example of ME taking responsibility for MY sin. Notice how I am both the person who sins, and the person who pays the consequences for the sin. That’s kind of the definition of personal responsibility.

Catholics believe non-Christians can be saved. If you are talking about sin from an atheist standpoint, then you’ve confused me.

When you die, you will go to heaven, even though you sinned This is because Jesus paid the penalty for your sin. Notice how, in your situation, YOU commit the sin but Jesus pays the consequences for it. This is the opposite of personal responsibility.

Christians who sin and do not repent can go to hell. Being a Christian is not a golden ticket to heaven, at least not in my Christianity. I know there are many who think so and abuse that belief. I apologize on behalf of them.

As for the consequences of sin, Jesus pays the price for our sins, yes, but Christians still suffer consequences. Sin is fundamentally a separation from God and the community. I’ll give an example. If I steal from you, that is a sin against you and God. Immediately after that act, I have lost grace and I have damaged my relationship with you. If I repent, God will forgive. Jesus’ sacrifice made this possible, because without some form of sacrifice this would not be a just situation.

After all that, you do not have to forgive me. My relationship with you might be permanently damaged. Christians suffer that consequence and, in that sense, practice personal responsibility as much as anyone else.

Both sides are right in a way. If anyone wants to debate this further, I suggest making a thread in GD, perhaps entitled “Do Christians believe in and practice pesonal responsibility.”

[Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup]

@Malthus

41"Then he will say to those on his left,(BF) 'Depart from me, you(BG) cursed, into(BH) the eternal fire prepared for(BI) the devil and his angels.

The fire is eternal, not the torment.

The fire doesn’t go out, though the wicked are consumed.

[Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley]

After all that, you do not have to forgive me. My relationship with you might be permanently damaged. Christians suffer that consequence and, in that sense, practice personal responsibility as much as anyone else.

I can accept this as a refutation of my original premise, which was that christians do not believe in any personal responsibility.

However, while christians may suffer some consequences for their sins, those consequences are minuscule compared to the consequences that non-christians suffer. To illustrate, imagine my kid breaks a neighbor’s window, causing $100 worth of damage. If I make my kid pay the $100, my kid is taking personal responsibility. If I make my kid pay $1, and I pay $99, you could argue that the kid is taking personal responsibility because he had to pay the dollar, but I would consider that to be a pretty weak argument.

So since you and I both sinned, we both owe $100. I will have to pay $100, you will have to pay $1, and Jesus will pay the other $99. So can you be said to be taking personal responsibility? I suppose so, but in all ways that matter to our eternal souls, you really haven’t lost anything.

[Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley]

@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup

The fire is eternal, not the torment.

The fire doesn’t go out, though the wicked are consumed.

You are forgetting verse 46: “And these will go away(BL) into eternal punishment…”

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Lord Ashtar

People, please. Take your hijack elsewhere. This thread is for helping Valteron decide how best to handle the hate literature the Gideons left in his hotel room.

Well, that went well.

[Weirddave]

@Don't Call Me Shirley

You are forgetting verse 46: “And these will go away(BL) into eternal punishment…”

Which is different from eternal torment. Death, permanent death while others live forever, is a pretty harsh punishment.

[Autolycus]

@Don't Call Me Shirley

So since you and I both sinned, we both owe $100. I will have to pay $100, you will have to pay $1, and Jesus will pay the other $99. So can you be said to be taking personal responsibility? I suppose so, but in all ways that matter to our eternal souls, you really haven’t lost anything.

Well, if we’re talking spiritual dollars and not physical dollars, that’s exactly the reason why the Gospel is “The Good News.” That Christ’s death and resurrection on the cross could enable this amazing connection with humanity and God is IMO the central mystery of the Christian faith.

[Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup]

@Don't Call Me Shirley

You are forgetting verse 46: “And these will go away(BL) into eternal punishment…”

Death’s pretty eternal.

I die tomorrow, I’m dead. Second Coming time, I will be judged, and, if I am found lacking, will be destroyed forever when I otherwise would have been able to walk with my God.

Sounds pretty eternal to me.

Sounds like punishment to me too.