Yup. I just gave you one. Read the book “Touched With Fire” that she wrote which examines the incidence of bipolar illness among hundreds of writers, artists and musicians over the centuries.
Could you be more specific? Where in the book does Mrs. Jamison make the case that “fervent religious belief” is “synonymous with mental illness”?
There is a very large assortment of symptoms associated with bipolar disorder. Delusion and hallucination are rare at best, and almost elusively associated with very severe expressions of the illness.
You really should concede this point, Biffster. It’s wrong, and it detracts from your point.
Not going to concede anything, except that perhaps not all people with mental illness hear the voice of god, have religious hallucinations, delusions of grandeur or what have you. I speak from experience. The religiousity component can be very strong and very scary and impossible to control for the person suffering from the symptoms.
That’s why strong religious devotion scares me, and I was brought up and continue to be RC. I am not arguing from an atheist standpoint. However, God, in whatever form He or She takes, is at best an imaginary construct, a being that we each shape to our own specifications. Man creates god in his own image, which is probably why there are so many fights going on about the god’s nature and why some people can rationalize killing in god’s name.
As far as bipolar illness and religiousity, I am certainly not the first to notice the correlation.
“Perhaps not everyone.” Fuck me sideways.
Ok, whatever dude. If you’re unwilling to walk back your wrong statement, I can’t do anything about it. Just be aware that it really detracts from your otherwise understandable position.
Tried your link, but it didn’t work for me. Seeing as fervent religiousity=mental illness IS my point, I’m not sure what you agree with about my position. Maybe not every manic-depressive that ever existed thinks they’re talking to god, but all the ones I’ve ever met have. In the article I linked to, it attempts to explain this a little. Some people talk to aliens too I suppose. But it’s always imaginary in one form or another.
OK, let’s get specific.
C.S. Lewis was fervently religious. Even wrote a whole bunch of books about his faith. Would you say that he was mentally ill?
And, also: I would still like to know where in “Touched With Fire” Mrs. Jamison makes the case that “fervent religious belief” is “synonymous with mental illness.” Thanks in advance.
ETA: I checked your link and it includes this -
Directly contradicting your position.
That’s fine. Like I said before, I speak from personal experience, and I may well have over-stated the case, but I know what I know, and if you talk to any bipolar person who has experienced a manic high, they will probably describe much the same experience.
Furthermore, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I did not mean to suggest that every fervently religious person is mentally ill. Other way around. MANY mentally ill people have a sudden upswing in their religious activity as one of the symptoms of their illness.
With respect to Ms. Jamison, the whole book is about the correlation of mental illness and very creative famous people. Have you read it? I suggest it as a very good resource about the subject, as is “An Unquiet Mind,” her own story about being mentally ill while at the same time being a psychiatrist. Very good reading, and if you don’t have the time or interest to read them, I understand. But I’m not going to cherry pick quotes for you so you can attempt to refute them. You either get it or you don’t.
Seen A Beautiful Mind? Same kind of idea, except that John Nash’s “fervent religious obsession” was code breaking. It’s hard to tell where reality ends and his delusion begins, a clever plot device by director Ron Howard.
By the way, I should also clarify that I do not see mental illness as a bad thing; far from. Many of my favorite musicians and movie stars live with mental illness. I have no idea how many of them have had religious delusions of grandeur, but I know from talking to other bipolar people that it’s a pretty common symptom.
If you think about it, praying to a being that you cannot see and can only imagine for help to get you through the day DOES sound pretty delusional on the surface. But whatever works and doesn’t hurt others is fine with me. Problem is, fervent religious belief seems to be a pretty big factor in why some people can rationalize hurting others (Crusades, ISIS).
Well now, you did write that
so misunderstanding you was very easy indeed. 
Indeed it is. So how it supports the idea that “religion be crazy” remains unclear.
:smack:
There is nothing inherently “religious” about being obsessed with code breaking.
I do believe you are going in a different direction than I had intended. The point of the thread was that the OP could not respect the moderately religious; my point is that I am wary of the overly religious. But for me “religious” means system of beliefs. I would just as easily make this statement about any obsession, whether it be politics, body art or hoarding. I am suggesting that balance and moderation are the key to healthy living. If you don’t agree, that’s okay. It’s my opinion based on personal experience.
It sounds good…although perhaps a bit depressing!
Of course, extreme and obsessive thoughts about anything is indicative of mental abnormality, if not necessarily mental illness. It runs along a spectrum. You have people who like cats, people who like cats a lot, and then crazy people who keep forty-eight cats in their mobile home.
A “moderate obsession” is the mark of an enthusiast, a fan, or a collector. The level of interest is higher than normal, but as long as it doesn’t start to become self-destructive, we can call it “eccentric” but not “crazy.”
There you go. There’s a fine line between genius and insanity, although I personally tend to think if them as flip sides of the same coin. Religion is an interesting one, since there is really no way to prove whose theory is right and whose is wrong. World views and belief systems can give us comfort and superimpose structure on our world, but they are always theoretical. Too often we forget that and, like Plato’s cave, mistake the shadows for the real things they represent. The stories that make up religions can be great learning experiences, but not if the end result is causing pain and suffering for someone else simply because they haven’t read the same stories.
One of the funniest things I’ve ever seen occurred at a science fiction convention. A big-name science fiction author (oh, screw it, it was David Brin) was disagreeing with the contention that creativity and mental illness might be linked. He absolutely rejected the idea. He dismissed it. He ridiculed it. He banged his fist on the table and shouted about how bad the idea was…
And many of the members of the audience were grinning, for he was all but demonstrating the very principle he was trying to deride!
Methinks the lad doth protest too much.
In a slightly related note, I was just talking to someone about “moderate” grief in time of personal loss. My friend lost a family member, and was devastated. The grief was excessive, in my opinion, and involving a year-long incapacity to work, week-long weeping spells, etc.
The response was, “Who is to say what a moderate reaction is?” She cited a Native Hawaiian custom of knocking out several of one’s own teeth as a sign of grief at the loss of a loved one.
My thought was that the loved one, himself, might best answer that. Would your mother want you to knock out a bunch of your own teeth? Would she want you to cry unceasingly or to be unable to work?
Moderation can sometimes be estimated on the basis of the Golden Rule. Would you want your children to knock out their own teeth when the day comes that you pass away?
Given the cost of dental work these days, I would have to say no, better for them to keep their teeth.
Maybe the religiousity of an individual is a reflection of how insecure they really feel about making their own choices and handling responsibility. It can be comforting to think some big supernatural presence always has your back, even is there’s no one there and you really ought to give yourself more credit. Unless of course maybe we all are god in human form, experiencing life in the flesh while we can.
Part of me agrees with that, but the best leaders I’ve ever known have been religious. Atheists tend to be great at personal responsibility and following their own way but I have yet to meet one that’s a leader. And leaders have to make tough decisions for other people, not just themselves.
I guess the problem is that atheists and the moderately religious have too much doubt to be effective in leadership.
I think we’d have to clarify “doubt in what”? I don’t think atheists have any doubt; they tend to be quite certain that religion is fairy tales an wishful thinking. In fact, there can be a clearheadedness there that religious people can lack.
For example, pretty much everyone who watches the Walkjng Dead know that it is fiction, though a very entertaining one. They don’t actually believe in zombies. And yet every Christian by definition has to believe in at least two zombies: Lazarus and Jesus. The dead do not come back to life, but these two did. It flies in the face of rational thought and ends up as a kind I of widely accepted superstition.
Personally world leaders who present themselves as overtly religious, like George W Bush or Osama Bin Laden, can be just as frightening and dangerous as any atheist leader could be. Anyone who can sacrifice somebody’s life here and now for some yet to be proven afterlife has it backwards in my opinion.