It can’t really be. We need people who actually believe in the power of prayer and actually want the prayee to heal, and actually want to pray for that actual person. It’s hard to have a random sample in that case.
Besides, if the praying people say it’ll work despite the limitations of the study, then we’re testing their prayers, which is as interesting as anything.
I’m not sure I understand your post - it now sounds as if you agree with me (that all such studies are flawed).
Huh?..Are you saying people that pray for someone else’s well being?..If so, the results will still have anomalies…the anomalies will happen when
what you pray for does not match what God’s will is…the results will be highly inconclusive, and will be argued both ways. It is still and till the end
of time, will be a principal of faith…If not, there would be little point to free will…
This still is rather a mute point…people saw the living Christ…he worked miracles among them…His virtue was easy to spot to those who wanted to
See him for who he really is…and yet many fail to believe even when he walked among them…they got mad at whether had to say and crucified him…
He sealed what he said with his blood….research on prayer will carry less weight…many still will not believe.
Just anecdotal here but there’s this guy at my church that was just about dead from a really aggressive cancer a month or so ago. The whole church prayed for him during one service, he went back to the doc and the cancer was gone. He still LOOKS like someone who is very sick, but I imagine that’ll change over time.
By the way I was not “witnessing” simply responding to the question. If it was taken the wrong way I apologize.
The “God does not do parlour games” is a legitimate argument for studies showing no correlation between the prayed-for and not-prayed-for groups, although I’m inclined to go with Priceguy’s reply. On the other hand that does nothing to explain studies showing the efficacy of prayer even if the differences are quite small.
Isabelle - Prayer may be a trickier thing to test for than, say, some new drug, but that does not mean that it is outside the abilities os science to test. There is no reason why a good controlled set of experiments couldn’t come up with some pretty definitive answers - at least as definitive as science ever gets.
Just because you have faith in something doesn’t mean it’s true. You yourself said “There is only one TRUE God and that is Jesus Christ.” yet people all over the world have deeply held non-Christian faiths. By your standards that would mean that their faith is somehow wrong. How can you be sure that your faith is the right one?
OK, Manhattan, I guess we’re drifting off into Great Debates now. Sorry.
But I once did an experiment of my own…I prayed for things in great detail, and wrote them down in great detail in my journal…I was answered in like manner. I did not like some of the answers, they were not what I wanted, but I could not refute the evidence before me that my answer had been produced in the detail manner I had asked…
It does not matter what I or someone believes, truth is truth…it can not change based on what I or you might say…When all is said and done we will all answer to the same maker…call him, god or Allah, or Elohiem, or what you may…The thing that separates Christ from others is he is the only one who said, “This is who I am”…he did not hedge his bets or make vague references…Not being able to prove He was in no way, shape or form who he said he was, I believe what he said…and that is…"As far as this world goes, I am your maker (under the direction of god my Father).
I do not believe that your question is really about prayer…For you fail to understand that it is not a religious principal meant to yield a quantified answer.
But I will indulge your natural curiosity.
Science by its nature attempts to provide quantitative models to explain God’s natural laws…they can do so with varying degree of success. Newtonian
Physics for example will tell us that things in motion will remain in motion until acted on by another force…Einstein tells us that matter can neither be
Creative or destroyed….both are true…but both are not the natural law that controls this things…they are models of that law. Would it surprise you to
Know that long before Einstein mathematically proved his theory that a Christian prophet basically said the same thing…"One that matter can not be
Created nor destroyed…and that all things are made up of matter both tangible things and spiritual things…
Are there correlations?..you bet…but of the two it is science who is flawed, for once according to science the world was once flat…and earth was the center
Of the universe…we now know those models were flawed…so will some of today’s believe be flawed…and yet eternal principals are not.
Yet science miss the boat on certain things…but for the record so does people who cling on to traditions and believes they barely understand.
Explain dinosaurs from a Christian view point?..Christian believe is that the world is all of 6,000 years old…is it?..what about carbon dating etc…
The two don’t add up?..right?..wrong they do…what is termed “creation”…in biblical terms is actually a “re-organization” of matter that had existed
Before. Basically God decide on a new world and shifted things around a bit to accommodate man etc…
To me it is clear as crystal all things can and will be explain in due time…but yet the principal of what is faith…will not be altered…it is an eternal
principal on which larger principals hinge…math nor Science (as we now know it ) will not alter it…All the research in the world will be of little use…
Why?..because it is a personal answer one seeks…to believe anyone else’s studies is the same as to believe what I say…it will do you no good…
In the end, you will only find the answer (if that is what you seek) on a personal level.
Of course. But I am skeptical of all such studies, for the very reason I’ve discussed.
Wishing for something, alone or in conjunction with the rest of humanity, leaves reality utterly unchanged. Causal law, cause and effect, is how the universe works, and that is an absolute.
If prayer worked 100% of the time, imagine how the world would be different. Clearly it does not. Causal law does work 100% of the time. Imagine if it did not.
This is a question that has a factual answer, for the rational and reasoned mind.
This is getting obnoxious. At least stick with the question, Isabelle.
SnoopyFan, what you describe is highly unusual if it’s true, but neither miraculous nor impossible. And that’s without asking questions like “nobody was praying for him before? Maybe there’s a quota?” Or “What if you pray to the Tooth Fairy?” Indeed, SDSAB David notes the flaws in testing on Christians. It seems rather like Pascal’s Wager to me: shouldn’t we just all choose the faith whose prayers have the best health benefits? 
Sure we should but we (as a whole) won’t if said faith requires us to um, do anything we don’t wanna do.
I hope for your sake you have the highest PRR [Prayer Recovery Rating], then. 
God said “I refuse to prove that I exist, for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.” Then CurtC said “Oh yeah, what about Isabelle’s prayer experiment? That proves you exist, so therefore you don’t.” Then God said “Oh, I didn’t think about that,” and promptly disappeared.
With posthumous apologies to Douglas Adams.
Isabelle, I’m not going to question your faith, but your logical positions are not well thought out. First you say that God can’t be proved with prayer, then in the very next paragraph, you contradict that and say that God proved himself by answering your prayers.
Science can answer the question of whether prayer works to cure someone (unless God is deliberately tricking us). Proving that prayer works would be a strong argument for the existence of God; however, showing that prayer doesn’t work would only show that if there is a God, he doesn’t do parlor tricks.
Yes, but the studies were very questionable. I don’t think a good study has shown a meaningful difference. There is a Skeptic magazine article about it from around Fall 2000.
There’s a sort of contradiction inherent in this whole discussion. Scientific studies are predicated on a reality in which events happen within a context of logical cause and effect. Prayers are an attempt to bypass cause and effect, if you will, and create an event which has no cause, except the arbitrary whim of the person doing the praying. It totally violates the premise of rational scientific study.
Wishes, hopes and fears can, however, have an impact on one’s physiological state, as in psychosomatic occurrences. That’s a different matter entirely.
Not the arbitrary whim of the person doing the praying - that’s controlled for. It’s the arbitrary whim of this god fellow. According to his believers, he can decide whom to help on his own terms. So a negative result would prove nothing about the existence of god, but a positive result would be evidence of god. That’s why it’s the believers who are doing these experiments. Of course, when they come out negative, the people will still be believers.
Saying that your religion is better/truer than my religion is definitely witnessing. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but you should limit yourself to posting such things in the Great Debates forum. The General Questions forum is for the discussion of verifiable facts, not your religious convictions.
The factual question here has been answered about as well as it can be. Further discussion may be continued in the Great Debates forum.
bibliophage
moderator GQ