Having been raped I find it difficult for someone to wonder if what happened to them was indeed rape - Unless you were sufficiently drugged or something.
Sometimes I have sex with my husband when I am not necessarily in the mood. By the time it gets to penetration though, I am definitely in the mood or the sex just is not going to happen that night. I think of it this way, sometimes I don’t really want the restaurant he has his heart set on or the movie he really wants to see… and sometimes the situation is reversed and I want sex/pizza/chick flicks/whatever and he doesn’t. We’ve worked out compromise in our relationship that keeps both of us happy. I cannot say he raped me as there is no negative consequence for me saying I do not want sex. He has not threatened me or coerced me or physically forced me to do anything. He does not pout or complain when I say no. I consented to sex with full understanding of what I was doing and why.
I have also requested he stop in the middle of intercourse and he always has. There have been two reasons for me doing this:
1 - flashback to the horrific sexual abuse I suffered as a child. In this case sex is over for the night and hubby does not complain one iota.
2 - pain from lack of proper lubrication. This was more common in our condom days (yes js-africanus sometimes it does get painful in the middle.) In this case we get some lube and continue.
Both partners should be able to stop sex at any point before or after penetration. Why is unimportant at that instant. Afterwards you can discuss the reasoning and decide to continue the relationship or not but during if one person says stop then sex should stop.
I’d be very surprised if most men havn’t had sex with their SO when they didn’t really want to, just because she asked and was feeling horney. I certainly have. So this makes all sexualy active individuals rapists! What twaddle!
No, but if you show up for work, and your normal shift is 9 to 5, and you feel like going home at 4:55, and you try to leave only to discover that they have locked the doors, then yes, you have been enslaved, if only for 5 minutes. Yes, you may have been fired for leaving 5 minutes early, but they should not physically prevent you from doing so.
(of course I don’t know your take on the “stopping in the middle” thing, but this only pertains to those who feel differently than myself.)
Just to get it back to the OP, overlyverbose didn’t ask whether it’s rape if the one person says "please stop’ but the other doesn’t stop (at whatever point); she asked whether it’s rape if one person thinks “I wish he’she would stop” but says nothing, and the other person doesn’t stop.
This crazy lady caller was asserting the former. I think we all agree that nobody, not overlyverbose, not the rest of us, not even Bill Clinton, need worry much about Crazy Call-in Lady’s opinion, even if other Crazy Folks agree with her.
And OT, Wang-Ka, I understand that almost the scenario Ludovic describes was happening to certain Wal-Mart workers in Oregon (and maybe elsewhere) and Wal-Mart got sued for it. None of the Wal-Mart managers were arrested for practicing slavery, but “locking the doors” on the workers who wanted to leave could possibly constitute kidnapping. But IANAL.
Yes but people will be swept up in this. who knows how many lives will be destroyed because of laws like this.
If someone has to be convinced that they are a victim by someone else, then they probably aren’t. Kobe Bryants victim supposedly had to be convinced by her mom that she was raped, and joked about it a few weeks later. The punishment should fit the crime and someone who has to be convinced they are a victim shouldn’t get to give their attacker a life sentence. these laws are going too far too the prosecutions side.
Plus theres the whole issue of ‘women don’t need to take responsibility for themselves’ laws like this promote. They can get drunk and engage in sex but not be responsible for their decisions if they change their mind later.
Sorry, Dogface, I wasn’t clear (in reference to the first reason you listed); I meant that I don’t understand why a woman who has not been raped* would want to claim having been raped. If it really happened, then hell yeah, shout it from the rooftops, try make sure the fucker who did it to you goes down before s/he does it to someone else.
I’m talking more about situations described by the OP. In that case, as I said, I count myself lucky to not have been a rape victim, and hope I never am, so it doesn’t make sense to me to define rape in such broad terms that everyone (including myself) becomes a victim (especially when my “rape”, as defined by the OP, has not really traumatized me in any way).
As for the other reasons you listed . . . you make excellent points, but I still don’t get it, personally.
*For the purposes of this argument, we’ll define rape as a situation where someone was forced to have sex against his/her will, despite having made the objection known, via the use of physical force or in a situation where the person was unable to give consent (i.e., passed out or something)–not as a situation described in the OP.
The Calculus of Logic, although I’m sure there are situations in which a person would be in denial about having been raped (scenarios that come to mind are the rape of a man by a woman, which runs counter to the way people think about rape, or the rape of someone by a spouse or SO)–similar to the way some people are in denial about spousal abuse–and would need some “convincing”, I would like to issue an “AMEN!” to this:
In some ways it’s an oversimplification of the issue, sure, but overall, that’s the precise point I meant to make in my long, wordy posts.
I couldn’t agree with this more. I see no reason to turn something into a traumatic experience when it wasn’t to start with. In my past, I got drunk and had sex I regretted later, but I wasn’t raped, I just made some bad decisions. I have had sex with my husband when I wasn’t really in the mood, but I was not raped, I was making just another of the million compromises that you make in order to have a successful marriage.
I get so peeved by the infantilization and culture of victimhood I see so much these days. It demeans the experience of those who truly are victims of horrible crimes. And the thing is, when you start screaming, “I’m a victim!” at every turn, you’ve just given up your own power, because you’ve essentially declared that everyone has the power to traumatize you.
Well, I don’t tell this story very often, but I was raped in a way that is almost, but not quite, exactly described by the Illinois law. And there is no question in my mind that it was rape.
This guy that I knew called and wanted to come over, I said he could. He showed up very drunk and wanted to fool around. At first I was sort of willing, but long before we got past petting I changed my mind. I asked him to leave. He wanted a blow job. He kept kissing me, etc., trying to get me to change my mind. This guy was big, ex-Army Ranger, and drunk. He had been my friend. I did not want the situation to turn angry, it was already ugly. So I went along with it, although I kept telling him that I didn’t want to and that I wanted him to leave. Pre-penetration I told him, post-penetration I told him. Finally I got him to leave. No blow job.
No police either. I knew he raped me, but I’m not sure he knew. I didn’t want the he-said she-said. I didn’t want to deal with the fact that I let him do what he did because I was scared of what would happen if I didn’t. I actually came through it okay - I did what I needed to do to take care of myself.
YEAH. I was going to say almost the same thing. People stop all the time. Otherwise thosuands of people would die in accidental oral sex smotherings every day and the expression ‘sit on my face’ would not exist. Plus way more people would die in housefires. And millions would be late.
The ‘post penetration rape’ thing has happened to me and it was the exact thing, his mom came home. He and I had different ideas about her front-door to bedroom door speed and I wanted to stop. Then realizing that he didn’t care if I wanted to stop I REALLY wanted to stop. The more I wanted to stop and cried and fought and tried to get away the less he cared and the more I wanted to get away. So in the dramatic breakup that followed I had to point out that if she had opened the door he would have been able to stop so cut out the ‘couldn’t stop’ crap. He just didn’t want to stop and a valuable lesson about his character was learned by all. Except him.
Somebody already pointed it out but yeah, that’s why talk radio SUCKS. Any stupid person can say any stupid thing and then everyone listening feels depressed.
If you give consent of your own free will, regardless of whether you’d rather not, aren’t in the mood, or any other conditions, it’s not rape. It’s really not that complex, If you don’t want to have sex, be expressive about your lack of consent. If he does it anyway, you’ve been raped, and should do your best to make the asshole’s life a legal living hell. If you acquiesce because you don’t want to get into an argument, hurt his feelings, or any other reason, than you’ve had consensual sexual intercourse.
Methinks that rape is one of those crimes, like murder, where it’s fairly black and white about whether it’s happened or not. Things that aren’t rape yet are still non-consensual are generally covered by sexual assault laws.
Rape isn’t a question of regretting it ex post facto. What Savage, and apparently the writers of the letters, don’t mention is that it’s not rape just because the parties in question are drunk. It’s rape if they’re drunk, she says she didn’t consent, and he is found guilty of rape in a court of law by a jury of his peers because there was evidence to PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that she didn’t consent.
Likewise, while Savage isn’t wrong that just ‘guilting’ someone into a blowjob might not be rape, the writers get vague as to what guilt really means. “Aww, come on.” “Ok.” isn’t rape. But if it turns into real emotional abuse, well, I can see how it could be.
I don’t disagree, although we should leave room for intimidation here. The threat of violence is still a form of coersion.
Sadly, it’s not, especially because my experience with rape victims is that they assign a disproportionate share of the blame to themselves.
My experience has been just the opposite: even women (sorry, just haven’t met any men who’ve been raped, though I know it happens) who have been raped in a fairly ‘clear cut’ case go through a period of denial, sometimes a lengthy one. The reasons are numerous, but I’d say they include not wanting to be a victim, fear of response from friends, family and the public, and just plain old disbelief that something so horrible and traumatic could happen to them. And again, the fact that most rape is acquiantance rape muddies everything. If a friend raped you, would you really find it so easy to accuse them, point the finger at them in open court, have both of your names dragged through the mud, and (in all probability) alienate people close to you? I’ve never encountered anyone who found it easy. It can’t possibly be.
Now, I’m not claiming that this woman had the same problem, but my own physiology makes it that any clitoral stimulation post-orgasm is almost painful (in an exquisite sort of way). It eases after a couple of minutes though. Any chances that she might have suffered a similar hyper-sensitivity?
Sure, that’s why I said “of your own free will.” “Have sex with me or I’ll kill you” is most assuredly rape, while “have sex with me or I’ll break up with you,” while also coercive, isn’t.
True, but that’s more of a psychological coping response than true difficulty in recognizing what happened. An impartial observer should be able to tell if it’s a rape/not-rape situation without much trouble.
That was exactly my point, in case I wasn’t clear about that. I’ve heard too many people try to convince women that simply feeling bad about it afterward makes it rape. Waking up the next morning and thinking, “Oh, ugh, why on earth did I do that?” is entirely MY responsibility for having made a bad decision. I absolutely agree that simply being drunk does not remove a woman’s ability to give consent. There is an awful lot of gray area, but I just dislike women being portrayed as perpetual victims simply because of their gender.
If you mean “if you don’t want to have sex after you have already given consent, be expressive about your lack of consent” then I agree completely. You can’t expect the other person to realize that you’ve suddenly changed your mind. However, if you mean that people in general are obligated to always make their lack of consent explicit, even when they have not previously consented to sex, then I must disagree. Consent should not be assumed, and a failure to give a clear and forceful “no” is not evidence of consent.
