Have unions outlived their usefulness?

Great Debates
1

Man am I pissed off.

To begin: I live in Vancouver, BC… where 65,000 public employees are poised to go on strike. That’s not a typo. Many unions have contracts that expire on March 31, due to some ridiculous twist of cosmic fate.

While the overwhelming majority of these are health workers, and therefore limited in the actions they can take to force their employer to negotiate a contract, the people who will create the most havoc are not an essential service.
Even though I think they are. I’m speaking of bus drivers.
Here’s my letter, which was published in Thursday’s edition of one of this city’s daily papers.

**Bus drivers are threatening to go on strike because they want to earn more money. I think it’s time for these overpaid workers to take a reality check. They earn $44,000 a year to drive a bus. That’s ludicrous.
They also want to block TransLink from doing the one reasonable thing which might put more buses on the road – hiring part-time drivers.
Get real and join the new century. Unions were great when they were a group of workers banding together to prevent employer abuses. But the strike we’re threatened with is due to the fact that drivers are seeking an 18-per-cent wage hike over the next three years.
It shows that unions are out of control and should be disbanded – or at least banned from striking over something so extremely frivolous. **

So here’s my question. Why do unions still exist, and why do they go on strike? What is the point of bus drivers refusing to work? Why inconvenience the tens of thousands of people who have no other way of getting around town?

I could understand if bus drivers wanted to set up protest lines arond their boss’s home. I could understand if miners stopped working in a mine. But I cannot understand why bus drivers think they will accomplish something if they stop working.

So, am I right or not?

2

Isn’t that what they still are?

That works out at about five or six per cent per annum over the next three years. I don’t know what the inflation rate is like in Canada, or how Canadian bus drivers’ salaries compare with those of other workers, but it doesn’t sound so unreasonable to me.

I’m not sure that pay is an “extremely frivolous” issue for most workers.

3

How many tens of thousands of lives per year are these bus drivers responsible for?

I don’t think it’s ludicrous at all.

4

It might put more buses on the road. Or it might give TransLink an opportunity to dump full-time drivers (with their pensions, health care, and other benefits that are usually not given to part-time workers) in order to cut costs and increase profits.

Have businesses suddenly become more benevolent and caring in the 21st century? AFAIK, they are still profit-driven. Certainly, the types of abuses that occurred a hundred years ago don’t exist anymore, but that doesn’t mean that there is no need for continued watchfulness.

I don’t know how unreasonable that is. It would depend on B.C.'s inflation rate, Vancouver’s cost of living, and the average bus driver’s salary. And I’d be willing to bet that the bus drivers are striking over other issues (pensions, health bennies, job security, etc.) in addition to salary. Do you have any more info on that?

Unions exist because businesses exist. Without a collective voice, workers would be subject to the whims of a company with lots of money, lots of political influence, and lots of people who could work labor agreements in their favor. I’m not saying that businesses are evil and unions are forces of cosmic justice, just that companies often have priorities which are at odds with the concerns of the people who work for them. The collective bargaining process ideally produces a result which is acceptable to both parties.

And no bus drivers = no bus riders = less profit for the company. Unions that go on strike are betting that the company will cry uncle before they do. Personally, I think hurting the company that you work for can be counterproductive, but sometimes it’s the only option available. A threat is useless if you aren’t willing to carry it out.

5

Some details

Bus Drivers in most Canadian cities actually work for a crown corporation. That’s the case in Vancouver.
Translink’s board of directors is composed of mayors and councillors from the region.

The average Canadian family earns $38,000 a year.

Inflation… it’s around 2 percent.

And as for other issues in this one specific strike… there aren’t any. The only outstanding issues are a 6% yearly raise, banning part-time drivers, and banning contracting out.

Every other issue (health care, pensions, etc…) has been worked out to everyone’s satisfaction.

But here’s the rub. Bus drivers going on strike will actually save their employers money. They are government employees, who work for a money-losing organization.

6

I understand that threat of strike and the corresponding loss of cash flow are the main weapon a union has against a business. IMHO however many unions are a bad thing. People getting paid $30 an hour for effectively unskilled labor is so horrid to think about (ie car assembly lines)
I’m going to try and find a link to a rant by Ray Owens, who runs http://www.jokeaday.com on unions. He makes alot of good points.

7

I am filing a complaint with my Union Foreman to protest this thread.

This is in Canada, right? What’s that in American? Doesn’t seem unreasonable.

So, 18% over 3 years, is 6% per year, minus 2% for inflation is a 4% raise. Also doesn’t sound unreasonable.

Why? What should assembly line workers make? $2.00/hr + tips? So do you think Managers who sit on their asses all day pushing paper deserve say $50,000/yr but not the people who do the actual work? Hell I’m a pretty well paid professional (Network Technician) and I don’t work nearly as hard as somebody at an auto plant. They deserve the money they make.

8

This is a tough issue for sure, and there have been some very good points brought out already in this thread.

In short, my answer is: “Duh, I dunno…”

But I can add a few things to the brew:

  • I’m a teacher, and am not involved with my union despite being forced to join it. The older teachers who have been around a while are very gung ho on the union. This is because they fought for, and won, some important stuff years ago. However…

  • These days the unions have a knee jerk response to anything that sounds remotely not in their best interest, even if it’s in the school’s interest. It often seems that nothing is more sacred than a prep time lasting 45 minutes to eight decimal places. However…

  • I have no doubt that in the absence of a teachers’ union, the administration would go ape shit in saving money through attrition and various other hairbrained schemes involving having fewer people do more work.

  • As for the specifics of the OP, I think unions do play a role in making people realize that workers need to make a LIVING WAGE. For God’s sake, the poverty level (for a family of four) in the U.S. is set at a level I doubt most SINGLE people could live on for long. Somebody has to drive the bus, flip burgers, cart off the garbage, etc. I have no problem with them making a living wage. We can’t all be stock brokers or computer programmers.

9

Ok so you as a network tech dont mind that someone who flunked out of high school can make more than you because he found a union shop job. I do ok for myself but thats because I went to the time and effort to educate myself to the standard for my position. I still make less than a person does starting pay as a forklift driver in a union warehouse.

I’m curious how much supervisory experience you might have if you think management is doodling on a couple forms. Management positions are about responsibility and accountability for decision making. Would you want to lose your job because someone who works under you screwed up? It happens to managers every day.

10

Unions are, if you’ll forgive a strange metaphor, an Escherian solution to worker’s rights, much like traffic circles are an Escherian solution to the four-way stop.

I have little problem with workers at a specific plant voicing their specific concerns, even en masse, to the company they work for. I have little problem with them going on strike, demanding better treatment, better pay, longer lunchbreaks, whatever.

I don’t see the need for unions at all in a permanent sense. They were useful, to be sure, and perhaps even originally necessary (due largely to politics, not the business owners).

The biggest tool unions have for them, their only asset in the fight ( :rolleyes: ) between employer and employee, is force-tactics. Why do union workers picket? To bring attention to their cause. But what do they do if someone tries to cross the line and fill their shoes? Woe be that tomato.

Unions cannot simply negotiate with employers, they must “make demands.” Demands are, you’ll note, ultimatums…do this or else. Or else what? Or else we’ll strike, and harass anyone who tries to keep the company going (so we have a fucking job to come back to).

I tell ya, if I owned a business and the employees went on strike, I’d take the losses. Fuck them. This isn’t feudal Europe or times of slavery, man. If you don’t like your job, get a new one.

It is unreasonable to expect guaranteed wages on work not done yet. It is unreasonable to expect the same wage increase without performing better (apart from inflation, which is pretty justified).

And do you think a pound of gold does more work than an automobile? Please note that wages increase for jobs based largely on the relative scarcity of the workers, not by fiat, and definitely not by “the amount of work” they do. General labor positions can be filled by a relatively high percentage of the population after relatively little training. Hence, workers are cheap.

I don’t see teamsters rallying for McDonalds(as well they shouldn’t). Get over it or get a different job.

11

Well, perhaps once corporations are abolished, then unions will have outlived their usefulness. So, the reall question is “Have corporations outlived their usefulness?”

In all seriousness though, I think one needs to have balance between the different groups in society. Unions were formed to give workers more strength relative to employers (corporations, small businesses, government, etc.). To my mind, the employers, particularly corporations, have been getting more powerful relative to workers / unions.

I admit that unions will lead to some excesses. But, personally, I get much more exercised over the obscene salaries “earned” by corporate executives, and ridiculously obscene golden parachutes given to those who totally fuck up, than I do about some bus driver getting $44,000. I personally don’t see much less competence on the part of bus drivers here in Rochester than I see on the part of top executives at the company that I work for!

12

Uh there are thousands of non-union corporations that do just fine. What does incorporating have to do with the need for unions?

As it should be, its their money why should the workers be allowed to demand how they spend it.

If you look into it most corp pres types that you are referring to have a huge portion of their income tied to stock options and other incentives. If the company loses money, they lose money. They risk more and they gain more.

Ok so maybe you would like to swap the bus drivers in rochester with your accounting dept on the day before pay period closes. How long do you think it will take for them to figure it out, quite a while probably weeks if not months. How many employees will be there long enough for them to figure it out.

Meanwhile after a few hours most of the accounting dept will probably be getting pretty comfortable scooting their buses around town.

And thats just accounting, not senior management dealing in all aspects of the business.

13

drachillix, you need to get yourself a mother-in-law who will say the following to you: “The only thing that counts in the end is how much you made. No one cares what you did or how you did it. The only thing you have to sell is your labor. Make sure you sell it to the highest bidder.”

Words to live by. I took 'em to heart, and am now making more than I ever dreamed, simply because I always make sure that I’m making as much as I can for the work I like to do.

As for unions, their members are doing the same thing.(except for the part about liking their work, I’m sure.) Rather than begrudge them their salaries and perks, get some for yourself.
Myself, I never saw anything wrong with someone doing whatever it took to make as much as possible.

14

drachillix, the only comment I’ll make is that you’re totally misreading jshore’s post.

Aside from that, I’d like to raise a couple of points missed in the OP.

I also live in the Vancouver area, and will be affected by the strike, so I’ve found a little information on the issues, mostly from union sources. Management doesn’t seem to be saying anything very specific.

The drivers (allegedly) have had very small raises in their last two or three contracts, somewhat behind inflation. (This has been government policy lately.) If so, the raise they want is a catch-up. As mentioned above, they oppose new terms regarding contracting-out and the use of part-time drivers, both of which seem to be high priorities of the company.

I’ve also seen claims (I don’t know if they’re true) that management has given themselves a substantial raise (15%, IIRC), and recently decided that board members will get $150 for any meeting that lasts over 15 minutes.

The drivers seem pretty reasonable to me.

15

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by drachillix *
[BUh there are thousands of non-union corporations that do just fine. What does incorporating have to do with the need for unions?

There are companies such as WalMart and McDonalds that have found that they can exist without unions. These corporations have monsterous turnover rates and they recieve a lot of complaints about customers service because I think you’ll agree that most workers who live around minimum wage aren’t going to put too much energy into their jobs. WalMart and McDonalds have decided that they can live with this state of affairs. For companies such as General Motors, having 200% turnover a year and lousy, unmotivated employees isn’t really an option. You need people who know what they’re doing. A union is necessary for some companies to prevent management from taking too many drastic steps against its own employees.

The corporate president is never in danger of not being able to pay medical bills or rent payments, though. I think that some people overestimate how much financial security workers have in our economy. For many people, keeping wages rising to meet inflation is of vital importance, especially if they are saving for kids’ college education.

16

Financial security is not another person’s responsibility.

I don’t know what else to say on the matter. Unions are a terrible way to get what you want.

17

Tell me, what proportion of negotiations over, say, pay result in a strike rather than an amicably-negotiated outcome?

18

He seemed to be implying that a good bus driver was no more or less difficult than being a good manager. I know several folks who do quite well for themselves as employees but have no desire to advance because they don’t want the responsibility.

Ok, I agree with this.

Bus services I would imagine get hit hard a few times a day. Being able to put a few extra drivers and buses on for the morning and afternoon work rush for the same price as a single full time driver is good business sense, and good customer service. It also allows the company to terminate more easily if this person sucks as an employee. I’m sure anyone who works in a union shop has a story or two about people who should have been gone long ago but the company cannot fire him/her because of union protections.

sounds a little fishy but then again maybe this was part of the management contracts.

and still make $150 if that meeting goes on for 6 hours. At which point they arent making much more than the guys in the trenches. Such are the joys of exempt employees (often management) they are paid to perform a task. Do it well, train your people right, you can probably come in drink a cup of coffee, read through the reports for the day, answer a few questions, return a few calls and go home.

The trade off is that when and if the shit hits the fan you will be there for 12-14 hours for the same pay. Such are the joys of management.

Get your hands on a medical bill $150 for 15 min is probably pretty close. And a doctor has a lot more 15 min patients than a board has 15 min meetings.

Really, damn I guess those bus service managers are listening to your mother-in-law too. IMHO the average union would happily strip mine a company into bankruptcy and then blame the employer for not being able to make enough money to meet increased pay demands.

Ever wonder if unions drive inflation more than anything else?

19

Unions!!

I hate them the way they are and understand the need for them at the same time.

A friend of mine used to be high up in a Union years back and he left because of the corruption in the top people. He told me stories of abuse of Union funds, of hiring dead beat people in key positions because they were related to Union heads, of using unreasonable force to get the Union into a business, of going after ludicrous benefits from companies just because they could and passing ridiculous Union laws to keep the peons happy.

At the same time, I understand just how quickly many companies would screw thousands of their employees if it was not for Unions.

One of the strongest Unions is in the film industry among the crews. Films depicting Unions in bad light have been stopped from getting made because Union cameramen, grips, bestboys, electricians, carpenters, painters, cleaners, and so on decided it should not be made. Look at all of the jokes about Teamsters - like 4 men sent by Union rules to do a job one could handle.

Not kidding! A lady had to have a great washout filled in by her city, because they did not cut a ditch right. All it needed was a dump truck of rough fill. Four Teamsters showed up - one drove the truck, being a Union Driver one was a Union Helper, one was a Union member who guided the truck back and another Union member was there to assist the Union man who guided the truck back.

All they did was back up, dump the fill and leave! The driver never got out of the cab, nor did his assistant!

My friend who used to be in a Union told me how the Bosses ate in top restaurants, threw parties among themselves, voted themselves enormous raises, charged limousines to the Union, took ‘business trips’ paid by the Union to Las Vegas to gamble and party and buy prostitutes on the Union expense accounts. He said they swilled booze like it was going out of style, had impressive offices, hired family members and friends to positions that should have been delegated to Union members, and used their positions to get great homes built with huge discounts. All on the funds paid in by the working Union employees, who had little idea of what went on behind the scenes.

A neighbor of a friend of mine was an electrician. Union. My friend is an old lady on a fixed income. One day, she had wiring problems and asked him if he would fix it and she would pay him. He declined, saying he was Union, was on vacation and not allowed to do any nonunion work!! They got along real well also, so it was not the case of the old lady pestering the guy for free work and the guy did not want to be bothered. He said if she got someone in, like a son or a friend, he could tell them how to do the work, but was not allowed to touch it himself.

What?! Like anyone would ever know!!

Now, I worked for several places which were nonunion and got screwed in pay, treatment, benefits and working environment. When we decided to try to get a Union in, the boss said he’s fire us all and shut down the small company if he even smelled a Union representative floating around.

I worked for one company which was a subcontractor for a bigger one, which was mostly union. So, while us nonunion guys worked long hours under hard conditions for low pay, few benefits, got dunned for any damage we did to the equipment, the main company union guys, doing the same thing, had it easy. They made $5 an hour more than us, had work restrictions requiring 2 to do the same amount of work that 1 of us did, great benefits, great working conditions and they were not jacked up for unavoidable damage to their equipment!

We got raises of 10 and 25 CENTS per hour, and theirs ranged in the $1.00 level. They had extensive health insurance with a minor copay deduction while we were offered limited insurance that was so expensive, only 1 guy took it. They could not be harassed unjustly, while we were harassed all of the time. They could leave their work undone if it was too much and they could not finish. We had to get done, or stay late, off of the clock to finish it or risk being fired.

Unions, I figure, just need to be reorganized from the top down, to wipe out the corruption and to set logical limits on benefits and pay.

Like, why should this guy on an auto assembly line, using a power wrench to tighten 8 bolts on a car make $20 an hour? Or this factory worker who uses an electric fork lift to carry big bales of folded boxes to an assembly line once an hour get paid $15 an hour, when he actually only works 15 minutes out of each hour? The rest of the time he sits in the shade, smoking and reading.

I knew a guy who got paid $16 an hour to sit in the shade by dumpsters and make sure the people threw aluminum scrap in the aluminum dumpster, paper in the paper dumpster and so on. That was 20 years ago. If he is still there, his current pay ought to be around $30 an hour to sit in the shade, smoke dope, read and get up now and then to check the guys dumping salvage. He used to laugh about it.

So, yes we need Unions, and no we don’t need their greed.

20

arl, I gotta ask: what’s this mean? If a guy goes on strike with his co-workers, thereby endangering his job and causing major financial loss to himself in the short run, in order to get whatever it is the union is asking for from the employer, how is this depending on someone else? You’re out there taking a tremendous risk for yourself and your fellows and this is putting the responsibility on someone else? How?