Have you ever had to conquer envy--and if so, how?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’m not entirely sure I should post this, and may end up erasing it before I do. I’m baring what I consider is my absolute worst trait, my most toxic flaw.

Oy gevalt, I’m putting the backstory in spoilers because this is crazy long and probably optional.

[spoiler]The quickest background I can give: I’ve suffered from depression my whole life, and battled it with on-and-off success (usually off). Every step forward I take is a struggle. I feel I was cursed with a desperate need to have my existence validated, since I’ve kinda always believed I shouldn’t have been born.

(Yes, I’ve been working on it with various therapists/docs for a kabillion years, I have a good idea from where this issue stems and yet I can’t divest myself of it.)

As it happened, my most marketable talents/skills lie in two areas that require an audience’s approval of some kind: performing as a singer, and writing fiction. I’m never as happy or even content as when I was on stage getting applause–which hasn’t happened since I was 22–or when I get feedback on my writing. Finally, a reason for me to be here!

I gave up on music ages ago (I’m 49 now), and luckily had editing and writing to turn to, which has been semi-successful in an extremely minor way. Setting the editing aside (that’s where I earn my living), I’m a good-not-great writer. People generally like what I produce.

It’s not literature, it’s not inspiring, I’ve no ambition or expectation/delusion that I’ll write a Great American Novel. But if nothing else, I’m good at creating atmosphere, solid at characterization, and able to imbue my work with a strong narrative voice. When readers compliment my writing, the most common reaction is that they can see exactly what’s happening and feel as if they’re “inside” the story.

Unfortunately, these skills aren’t always able to get past my depression, which often makes me default to paralysis and inactivity. I don’t produce quickly. Professional writers who are in my genre write and produce multiple books quickly, sometimes two or three a year. I am stuck too often to live off my writing. Which is why it’s lucky I’m a damn good editor.

Erm, sorry, that wasn’t very short backstory after all, was it? I never said I was a good editor of my own work! [/spoiler]

Okay so now here’s the crux of my problem.

Envy. I don’t mean the vague kind that many of us have for people who are more talented, richer, prettier, luckier, etc. Mine is a dark, poisonous envy that belongs in the breast of a character in some Greek tragedy. It’s a snake crawling inside me.

When I see others, even good friends–hell, even relatives I adore–accomplish things that I wish I could (primarily in the writing/performing realms), I can be happy and supportive, but something inside me shrivels into a little ugly black ball of self-loathing (justified) and outward-projected anger (usually unjustified).

More spoiler because you can get the gist without slogging through the details:

[spoiler]I notice that my envy changes slightly depending on the person it targets.

Example #1: My friend Alan (needless to say, not his real name). I’ve known him since he was a teenager and a new member of a writing community I visit. He started out really raw and, um, not great. But damn did this guy stick to his guns. He studied and read and got his MFA in writing and holy cow, his writing improved fantastically.

It was amazing to watch, really. He moved to LA and worked his ass off to get writers’ assistant jobs and shopped his scripts around… And now he’s 30 (oy!) and has worked on several TV series. He still struggles, because it’s a damn difficult career he’s chosen, but I know he’ll work through this.

Example #2: My friend Lynda. I’ve known her only a few years. She’s been churning out novels like most people produce dirty laundry. Everything she writes is in a single genre, they’re raw, they need a fuckton of editing, they contain enough purple prose to paint acres of violets, they contain rip-offs of every fantasy movie and videogame she’s ever played, and Mary Sues like you wouldn’t believe.

This girl–she’s 26, but a very young 26–has an unbelievable ego. Her posts on various social media sites are full of references about how she knows God put her here to write, and everything she writes is the most amazing book ever, making her cry at its loveliness and on and on, and people have to give her allowances for her moods because she’s a writer, and writers are different precious unicorns. Lynda has a decent readership, fairly small but loyal.

Now: my jealousy toward Alan is somewhat muted. I truly wish I had started as young as he did, I wish I had his ambition, his ability to network (I’m also fairly social phobic, yeah I’m a real treat ain’t I?), and his mental health, because Alan is blessedly non-neurotic and what few quirks he has aren’t crippling in any way. I’m genuinely happy for him because I’ve watched him grow from that awkward kid to the talented working writer he is now. Yes, I still wince with jealousy when something of his gets shown on TV, but it doesn’t feel as uncontrollable.

Lynda, on the other hand… she’s the one who brings out the ancient Greek deity levels of frustration and envy. I had to unfollow some of her various feeds (Twitter, etc.) because it was driving me into such over-the-top nausea and anger. If I had a lightning bolt that could traverse my monitor and reach the town where she lives just to give her keyboard a teeny little electric shock whenever she posts another of her “OMG I’ve reached 1000 likes on my Book Page, God is shining on me!” I swear I would do it.

I understand my annoyance with Lynda. She’s actually a sweet person. A total narcissist who shows very little interest in anything I do, but she doesn’t mean any harm, and in fact is quite charitable and generally a good egg, with a few chips in the shell. Yes, I find her behavior pretty sickening, but I don’t think she deserves the dark rage that bubbles in me when I read those posts or emails.

Mind you, I would never tell her how I feel, and I know I don’t show it. (We’re only internet friends, thank goodness, so whenever she starts in with her “I just wrote the most moving chapter I’ve ever seen” spiel, she can’t see my eyes rolling up so far back they can see my brain.)

But it’s still something I’m not yet able to control and I do worry that some day my black, oozing bitterness and begrudging of her various mini-successes (e.g. publishing four books in a year, going to a book signing, etc.) will start to bleed out.

Example #3: This is even more embarrassing to admit, but since I’m oversharing why not go whole hog: I even get a (much more mild) sense of scabrous envy when I see one of the Doper authors posting about their novels. I don’t even know these folks, and they seem perfectly nice and I’m sure are talented and everything.
[/spoiler]

It’s as if I feel each book someone else publishes means one less book I can write. Which is pathologically stupid and illogical, I know; the only thing that ever stops me from writing is me: my own paralysis fueled by depression and fear of failure. I really do know that.

Most important, I know these reactions are bad for me. It doesn’t spur me on, competitively, to actually finish what I start. A smart, talented person would use this as fuel to complete my manuscripts and either shop them around or go the indie-pub route. If that’s how I reacted, fine, then the envy has a purpose.

It doesn’t. All it does is frustrate me, and lowers my self-esteem even further, and makes me realize what a terrible person I must be, because I’m pretty sure no one but a pretty nasty individual would take umbrage over friends’/strangers’ successes.

And yet… I have no idea how to get beyond it. How can I let it go? I know that if I had three novels ready to publish this year I’d be less envious, but I also know that this is unlikely, because of aforementioned depression. I have to be realistic. So short of fulfilling whatever goals I have for myself, how can I… how can I stop feeling this automatic response of misery and anger?

Sigh. This was more a blog post than a question, I suppose. Feel free to ignore all of the above (I can’t believe anyone actually got through it).

The TL;DR version is really all in the thread title: How have you gotten past envy, if it’s ever been a problem for you?

2

You totally have my empathy. I have an angry ugly black ball too.

I’m working on it, but I wouldn’t say I’m working on conquering it. That sounds like erasing it, when it is in fact real. I’m trying to make it useful. It tells me multiple things about myself, things I can use.

I don’t think “letting go” works for most of the things people say it about. When I get better with something, sometimes eventually I’m not really holding it any more – but there was never me letting go of it. Maybe it lets go of me, or maybe grasping metaphors aren’t helpful.

So you are frustrated, have no idea how to get beyond it, and are sighing. I think that’s wonderful. That’s the part of you that IS doing it right. Sorry, but this useless non-trail is exactly where you need to go.

I think.

3

Do you want to write or do you want to be a writer?

4

Guess the book you have to write is about the black ball.

5

By any chance are you an eldest child?

I have seen a lot of this in my own family. I suffered with this myself for many years. I worked through mine but had not really fully conquered it until about the age of 40. I don’t believe the answer is simple or the same for everyone. Success has a lot of rewards that go with it. Which of these rewards is it that you are envious of? I suspect it would be the respect, validation and accolades that you are not getting and others are.

A deep self searching inventory of yourself is needed. Are you putting out your best efforts or are you lazy? Are you feeling passionate about what you do? Do you feel motivated and driven by passion or your desire for approval? 

 My biggest challenge was acceptance, I mean acceptance of everything! Some very wise words in the serenity prayer. " God give me the strength to accept the things I can't change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference." Even if you don't believe in god say some version of this prayer as many times a day as you need to say it and pay close attention to what you are actually saying when you say it. 

 Some would say you have a long road to haul getting over this one but in reality there are a simple set of steps you can take that will start giving you positive feedback right away. Sometimes that is all that is needed to get the ball rolling if you clearly understand what your goals and motives are.

I heard a phrase 25 years ago that was a life changer for me. Some would say I over use it but it applies in so many areas of my life and has given me a successful perspective to see things from. Going in with the right perspective is extremely important. The phrase goes something like this. " “When we fall in love we fall in love with the way we feel about ourselves when we are with that other person” I have applied this concept to all areas of my life. Work relationships, family relationships, social relationships etc. It forces me to examine what I am bringing to the table in all my interactions with others.

   I think you have recognized the problem for what it is which is the first step, you have owned the problem as being yours. That is a big step! Don't give up on yourself.
6

Thank you, Napier. (Firstly for getting through any or all of that behemoth of a post!) I think your metaphor is apt, and I understand what you mean. To use another one, I guess I feel as if the envy is a bully pushing me backward. I want it to walk beside me giving my sleeve a light tug in the right direction.

:smiley: If useless non-trails are where I need to go, I am totally set for life! But seriously I see what you mean. Maybe talking about it takes some of the toxicity out of it. If I can break out of the vicious circle of low self-esteem leading to envy leading to lower self-esteem, that would probably be a big help. Or not.

Hm. I can’t see doing the latter without the former, although if you’ve got a prescription for doing that, for God’s sake send it my way!

I probably should’ve mentioned that I’ve had four novels published, and not by a vanity press or self-pub. (Although I would like to give the self-pub route a go; I like the control it puts in the hands of the author.) I’m not a novice. To me, that makes this all the more pathetic.

I’d like to get past the periods of paralysis that cripple me (some call it writer’s block, but this is too ongoing for that), which are usually worsened due to my wasting time being angry at myself & others for their success. In short, I want to be free to write so as to further and expand my existing career as a writer. Is that what you mean?

7

Let me put it this way. Your envy doesn’t appear to spring from what your friends write. It seems born of them* being* writers. Brian, on the animated show Family Guy, is an excellent example of somebody who wants to be a writer, not somebody who wants to write.

8

Ooh someone slipped in there while I was composing.

Heh, actually the youngest. Somewhat neglected, though, which may explain the need for attention/approval. To give the most likely psychological basis for my feeling as if I need to justify my existence: my oldest sibling died before I was born. If he hadn’t, I wouldn’t have been conceived, because no way would my parents have had four kids. It’s hard to live up to the responsibility of owing my life to my brother’s death.

You know how in Saving Private Ryan, a certain character who’s dying says to the eponymous Ryan: “Earn this!” Well, I’m Ryan in this scenario, and I don’t think I have.

Very good questions. Damn, I’m ten years behind you, though! I need to get a move on. And you’re right, it is the respect and validation–not so much accolades, exactly, but approval. I don’t need medals or honors. Just “You done good. You may continue living… for now.”

I do think I’m lazy. I have a weird lazy/perfectionist, black/white thinking deal going on, where I dislike what I’m doing and don’t think it’s up to my standard, so I can’t stand going on. And yet sometimes I can commit and work 24 hours at a time. Some of it’s related to the depression, but I don’t want to lean on that as an excuse. Truth is, I don’t know where the line between depression and laziness exists. It’s a blurry mofo.

As for passion vs. approval… here’s another place where I’m stymied by my own brain. Depression’s classic characteristic is the lack of enjoyment of things one used to love. I used to be fired up by the urge, the need to tell stories–both as a performer and a writer. Nothing has inspired as much passion as singing. But writing comes as close as anything.

It’s curious, I’m far more passionate about working in collaboration than I am as a solo writer (or performer, for that matter; loved doing musicals/operas, hated solo recitals). Since it began, my web-based serial has more words than are in the entire Harry Potter series. I can produce and love doing it. But much of the time, during low periods, I find it really hard to be motivated. Nothing gets past the fortress of meh.

You’re spot-on with the necessity to accept things. The good and bad. The highs and lows. The creamy middles. I will try that. I truly will.

I don’t believe in God (agnostic, too wimpy to commit to atheism!). Sometimes I wish I did. I see Lynda’s strength and purpose, plus her absolute certainty that God put her here to grace us with her writing, and holy cow wouldn’t that be a wonderful thing to believe?

My biggest fear in life is never finding that purpose. I need a raison d’etre.

So… forgive me, I’ve been up all night and my head’s foggy… what you’re saying is, one should approach one’s work (or family etc.) with the idea that one should love the way one feels about oneself when working? Or does it mean that if I don’t like who I am as a writer (which I don’t, obviously), it might not be for me? Or I should be the person whom I’d feel good about being… oh crap I’ve lost the plot entirely, haven’t I? I feel thick-headed, sorry. Me need smaller words.

The one thing, the one thing, that keeps me from feeling like a failure is the knowledge that despite a lifetime of grief, sadness and lost opportunities, I’ve continually tried to find an answer to my depression. I keep going to therapy even when my therapists leave and I have to start all over again. I try new medications (believe it or not, this is me on a med that actually works, knock wood; I don’t think I’d’ve written this post otherwise–it’s a thread I’ve wanted to start for two years).

So there must be part of me that perseveres, right? Something is fighting to get out.

I’m reminded of the lines in the Jonathan Coulton song about George Plimpton, “A Talk with George.”

*Don’t live another day unless you make it count,
There’s someone else that you’re supposed to be.
Something deep inside of you that still wants out
And shame on you if you don’t set it free *

9

Oh okay, I see what you mean.

I don’t envy Lynda’s writing; I do admire/envy many facets of Alan’s. He has a warmth and simplicity in his prose writing, and a real knack for shaping stories in a TV format that I lack. But you’re right, it’s the fact that they’re writers.

No, no, wait, that’s not exactly it. I don’t watch Family Guy but I know the Brian character is the dog, right? Does he just want the thrill of being called “A Writer”? (Kind of like Snoopy, with his “Here’s the world-famous grocery clerk” stuff.)

I don’t think that sums me up, exactly. I want to have accomplished something. I want to know that I started, continued and finished a project, and had other people read it. All the bits. I want to tell the stories that are inside me, I want to express… something… in an elegant but non-purple and definitely unpretentious way; I want to fine-tune it via my own round of editing and watch the text improve thanks to the hard work. I want the book to be accepted by a publisher, or published by me.

And then I want people to read it. Ideally, like it. But definitely read it.

Maybe all that’s the long way of saying what you said. I dunno.

10

Brian likes thinking of himself as a writer and likes others to think of him as a writer and an intellectual. Although he’s been published, he writes little and then it is mostly crap (notably his novel "Faster than the Speed of Love). Mostly, he simply wants to be acclaimed as a writer. Stephen King noted that the difference between wanting to write and being a writer was that, if you want to write, you’ll write no matter what other people say about the product. You almost can’t stop yourself. "Being a writer’ though is an image other people have of you. Your friends have that image, at least to you.
Maybe sit down at the keyboard and write.

11

You don’t come off as a person consumed by envy at all. You actually come off as a very warm introspective person that just feels you have not quite lived up to your abilities. You writing comes off as a very healthy person. I am also working on a novel but unlike you I am not a writer. Day after day I find myself questioning why I am so willing to put myself through this frustration when there are plenty of other things I could do that would be rewarding. You have a nice comfortable easy to read flow in your posts that I can easily see comming through in a novel.

12

I don’t know if I’ve struggled with envy a whole lot. Like, I don’t think I’ve ever wanted what someone else has, because I can always clearly see the downsides to whatever it is they have. I’v never wanted to be as sociable and physically attractive as my sisters, for instance, because I know that I don’t have the personality to meet the expectations that come with these attributes.

But I do think I’m an expert at measuring mysellf against others and feeling inadequate because of it.

What’s helped me is to avoid people who trigger inferiority complexes(complexi?) within me. I know that sounds like a lame strategy, but it works. I gravitate towards people who aren’t traveling in my lane, so to speak. Their interests don’t overlap with mine and they are sufficiently different from me that competition would never come into play. For instance, all of my friends right now are old enough to be my mother. They aren’t nerdy like I am, though they are all intelligent. They are better than me in so many ways, but none of the ways that I’ve ever wanted for myself.

I also don’t do Facebook. Facebook is where people showcase the very best of their lives while leaving out the worse. Some people aren’t suspectible to this kind of “false advertising”, but I am. I know that I’m the type of person who will look at everyone’s Facebook “lives” and assume that mine sucks since I don’t have anything bragworthy to post. So instead of subjecting myself to this for no good reason, I just don’t participate. I don’t think my life has suffered any for it.

13

I do not personally struggle with envy, it rears it’s head from time to time, as it does for most people. That said, we all have various sorts of emotions, thoughts, or character traits that we perceive, rightly or not, as flaws. As such, I think the same sort of process I’ve used on similar things might work for you. That is, I think getting to the root and understanding the underlying cause of these sorts of feelings may make them go away or, more often, will help give me a new perspective such that I see them in a more balanced light.

I have struggled with depression myself, but I do think the first part here isn’t to try to logic and rationalize your way through these sorts of feelings. Emotions are fundamentally irrational. Like, for instance, it doesn’t matter how much one finds out that an ex was a bad match, it still hurts to break up. But these ARE triggered by things like, in a breakup example, by a grief of loss and change in one’s life.

It can be a few things, and you may need to process through this sort of thing a few times, but what part of this sticks the most for you? Maybe you know, maybe you don’t, but it’ll be the one that just sucks the most to even think about. Is it the squandering of your talent? Is it wasting your time? Is it the fear of failure or inadequacy? Is it the exposure of whatever part of yourself goes into the writing?

Speaking just for myself, as a musician, it’s something I’ve been working on, but I find I struggle with sharing my music, despite that I almost always get overwhelmingly positive feedback. I’m hyper-aware of the various mistakes I make when performing or recording, but most people can’t pick them out. But moreso, because of how personal my music is, it’s difficult for me to separate criticisms of that from criticisms of what I’m trying to express. Yet, I handle criticism in other aspects of my life just fine.

I think you’re being too hard on yourself. That this is blocking you doesn’t mean that you’re not smart and talented. Some people are competitive by nature or uncompetitive by nature, that’s just who they are. Some are actually compelled to be competitive because of certain issues, like a drive to be the best out of fears of failure or inadequacy (or whatever else). For others, that fear that pretty much just makes them unwilling to even bother to compete. How we react to these things is a highly personal thing, and that’s exactly why resolving it is personal as well.

My question to you isn’t whether or not seeing other people succeed causes this feeling of envy and then this resultant lack of drive, but rather what aspect of it causes that envy?

Again, this, I think, is a bit of perspective. An emotion is just an emotion. Sometimes I have some irrational anger toward a friend or family member. It’s just an emotion. I’m not a bad person for feeling that way. That’s like saying someone is a bad person because of their favorite color or liking or not liking a food or song or movie. These are subjective experiences.

What matters is what process is triggering these emotional responses (as they may be rooted in more fundamental irrationalities) or how we react to them. So, for instance, if you’re feeling envious because of a friend’s success, if it’s rooted in an idea that you’ve failed to live up to your own potential, it’s not fundamentally a reflection on that person’s success, but rather a reflection on your view of your own actions. That is, in general, other than openly coercive or abusive behavior, our reactions are rooted in aspects of ourselves that we’re not at peace with.

Similarly, sometimes our emotional state is completely reasonable. Say, I see something happen that I believe to be a great social injustice and I’m feeling righteous anger about it. I can bottle it up and take whatever psychological and physiological damage that does to me. I can lash out and yell or be violent or break things. Or I can funnel that anger into something constructive, like using it to inspire change in that situation or future situations.

Maybe, for instance, you fundamentally feel like things have been unfair. Some people have gotten breaks greater than pure chance would dictate and you’ve had some crappy luck, that it’s not through lack of effort or talent, just you never had the same opportunities. If we suppose that’s the case, envy isn’t unreasonable. I don’t think a rational person would say someone is a bad person for being envious of someone who wins $10 Million the one time they play the lottery on a whim. Anyway, just pretending that’s the case, you can bottle it up and have it hold you down (which is what it’s doing to you now), you can lash out at these people, or you can use it to direct positive change by creating more opportunities for yourself or even helping others also down on their luck getting opportunities they deserve by teaching and helping edit their work, as an example.

You can’t let go until you have really identified what it is you’re holding onto. It’s like when you’re frantically looking around for something and you realize you’ve had it in your hand or pocket the whole time. You won’t find that answer without when it can only be found within. So, I think with some introspection, you’re close, in identifying that other people’s success triggers this. But is there a specific aspect of it? Are there other aspects of your life that trigger a similar, though maybe more muted, type of response? What ties these things together?

That is, it’s sort of a web of mental, emotional, physical and spiritual (or if not so inclined, however you see people connected, even if it’s just how you relate to people in a general sense) roots. You can give it a name, but you can’t extract it until you’ve fully identified where all of these roots have grown. Take the time to see how it affects your thoughts, your feelings, how it might even affect you physically, or how it impedes your relationships, job, homelife, etc. You can encapsulate all of that idea. Then, you can really experience it for what it is as it is, and after that, then and only then can you really let it go.

14

I think they key for me is to not put all of my self-esteem eggs in one basket. If you assess your self worth on one aspect of life, you’ll probably be disappointed. It’s important to look across your life, at work, family, friends, community, hobbies, personal happiness, finances, etc. and realize that your “good stuff” is probably spread across your life rather than concentrated in one little place. And this makes for a fuller, richer, happier life.

I also got a lot out of teaching. It requires you to get over your ego and be vulnerable to others, and when you manage to do that, it can be a real thrill and deeply rewarding.

15

I am a Doper novelist, and yes, I eat myself up with envy of any novelist who is doing better than me. Doesn’t matter if they’ve been at it longer than me. I feel I deserve recognition, and goddammit, it’s taking too long to get it.

I find myself composing and deleting a LOT of Tweets, these days. This is a side of me no one needs to see.

Because I don’t know if I’ll ever be published/be a best seller/be a multiple best seller, I don’t know if this envy will ever go away. So I guess we’re on the boat together?

16

Have you ever tried collaboration? For some people, working in collaboration changes how they approach the work. Of course, the changes cold be good, or could be bad, but it really works for some people. I think it can increase the level of other/outward focus for some people. And, of course, it leads to there being someone who is reading your work!

I think the only way to get past some sorts of emotions is to accept they are there, avoid situations that lead to them, and act as if they don’t matter.

17

Oh gosh, since finally getting some sleep I see there’ve been lots of responses–thanks for taking the time to post and read even part of that monster OP. Sorry about that. A combination of insomnia and self-pity can be lethal to one’s carpal tunnel syndrome.

I’ll have to split this up to respond properly.

Hm. Yeah, that’s definitely not me. I need the achievement of producing good writing and earning the gift of having someone read my work. I don’t want a shortcut, I don’t (only*) want others to see me as a Writer. If I got popular through crappy writing I’d feel like a fraud and any acclaim would taste like ashes in my mouth.

  • Hey I’m not a paragon! Of course I’d like to be well thought-of and regarded as a productive person in my chosen profession.

There’s a defensive part of me that wants to respond snarkily to that last line. I’ll bite it back and just say that it’s very good, straightforward advice for someone who hasn’t tried to sit down at the keyboard and write. The 51K words I wrote in November, and the other books I’ve written, do indicate I’ve tried. It’s not that easy for all of us, I fear. I mean… yes, a writer writes, so anyone who doesn’t, isn’t. But I think the reasons why matter.

The rest isn’t really a response to you, Scumpup; your comments (or perhaps I should say King’s) triggered a bugbear of mine, and reminded me of something that other people might say in the future, so I want to stave it off right now. You didn’t quite say this, so I’m not aiming it at you.

Something that’s always frustrated me, in writing communities and blog posts and just among the General Zeitgeist, is the canard that a Writer Should Write Just for Him/Herself, otherwise you’re merely a hack chasing fame and fortune.

I don’t get it. Writing is just about the only art form where this blather is used. Does anyone insist that dancers or actors or painters should be content merely dancing/acting/painting for themselves? No, it’s naturally understood that dancing and acting and painting are done with the idea that their art will be seen. Otherwise it’s a one-way conversation, a mere exercise in self-gratification, if you will. Enjoyable but not typically the end-goal of years of honing one’s talent.

And yet with writing, if you admit that you write to be read? Holy shit, duck fast, because you’re gonna be hit with the shame stick for being so shallow.

Screw that. When I was young, yes, I wrote because I loved telling myself stories. I started dozens of them, they spilled out of my fingers any spare minute at school or even at work (sorry, former employers!). But that was when I was on a track to be a singer, and had no real ambition for my writing. Now, though? Damn straight, I’ll admit to everyone and anyone that I write because I want to entertain others with my work. Words want to be read.

IMHO, of course. :slight_smile:

Healthy? Good God. Well, at least I know I can pull off writing a mentally/emotionally healthy character! :smiley:

Seriously, thank you for your generous words. They made me feel some relief at having unloaded all this blecchy inner stuff in front of the world.

Bolding mine. Unless your novel is a pictures-only book, I would call you a writer. Maybe you mean not a professional writer, but to hell with artificial designations about writing vs. being a Writer. You’re doing exactly what every other writer does, which is trying to tell a story via words: hence, a writer. To quote John Adams in 1776, if there’s any other requirement, I haven’t heard it.

And another thanks for the note about my posts. I truly appreciate that. I (obviously) empathize with your frustration, and I hope you keep working through it. Writing can be especially rough because it’s all about dragging concepts from your brain and forming words to express them on a page. And since it’s so internal, you usually have to do it all alone. There’s little instant feedback.

(With the exception of collaboration, of course, which I’ll get to when I reply to jsgoddess’s post.)

That strikes me as very healthy (not that I know whether your self-assessment is valid, of course). From reading your posts over the years, I’ve always thought you had a solid sense of self-worth and confidence, which I admire a lot. Which is why the following comes as a bit of a surprise…

I think this is far from a lame strategy, monstro. I think it’s a good self-protective mechanism. Firstly, surrounding oneself with people who have varied interests/goals is almost always a good thing. I wish I had the talent for that, but it’s difficult skill to learn at fortymumble years of age. And as luck would have it, most of my friends are writers, and everyone in my family is a musician.

(In my OP I didn’t even address my envy of my own damn niece, whom I love like nobody’s business and cheer her successes, but part of me shrivels up whenever I hear her sing–her lovely voice is very similar to mine when I was really young, even down to the voice type–soprano–and I feel bittersweet ache knowing that she likely has a significant chance at a career in music, one I never allowed myself. I wish her the best, I swear I do, but I can’t help regretting that she didn’t go into some other field–she has enough talent to have been a pianist, for example; no, she had to be a singer. And that bothers me! How’s that for being awful?)

You are very very wise. I’ve read studies by psychologists who’ve found that Facebook (and other social media, but especially FB) actually makes people more depressed, for the very reason you give. It’s really hard not to compare your life to the cherry-picked moments your circle of friends/connections choose to share. I took a break from FB during a particularly low period last year–my depression ebbs and flows; it’s always there but there are certainly times that are better than others. It’s just too painful not being able to share photos of me and a husband, me and kids, me standing against the backdrop of the Piazza San Marco, me and my Emmy**, me on stage in concert, or me and my five latest books.

** My self-esteem isn’t helped by the fact that my high school contemporaries are crazy successful. I went to an extremely high-ranked school in a community that pushed their kids hard, and as it happens most of my friends or at least peers seem to have ridiculously successful lives. They include:

  • An Emmy-award winning set designer
  • A very very high-level exec at Apple (you use an iPhone? That interface design is basically his)
  • A high-ranked exec at Hulu
  • A fucking multi-millionaire
  • The current chairman of a major arts institution in NYC
  • The manager for several well-known upper-B-list actors
  • A co-producer of two highly regarded and Emmy-winning NBC sitcoms
  • The conductor/music director of a critically-acclaimed NY orchestra

I could go on–I left out the former exec of Arista Records, for example, and my cousin who’s had a NY Times Best Seller, and of course that’s not counting all the people who live less exalted lives but have seemingly happy marriages and families–but is there a point? There’s very little I can do to catch up to them, and I wouldn’t try. I just want to be happy for others and not feel unworthy resentment. I’m not looking for stardom, I want to be content. I don’t see how that can happen until I can look at others’ achievements and Let It Go. </elsa>

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Part Deux:

I’m grateful for everyone’s responses, both commiserating or encouraging or both or neither. Blaster Master, your post in particular was full of resonant advice and insights, and I also thank you very much for taking such care and putting that much thought into your questions.

That’s true. And I do think I’m guilty of treating my existence like a coroner performing a post-mortem on a live body, cutting into the flesh and yanking out each diseased organ trying to find out hmm, why did the spleen react this way to the Sassafrass Virus? instead of just being a doctor and trying to heal the patient. All I end up with is a dead, really messy corpse.

(Good lord, what a morbid simile. Yipe.)

Great questions. I think it’s a combination of inadequacy–having little achievement to prop up my self-esteem–and squandering both time and talent, such as it is. I mean, y’know, the thing about Lynda is that as much hubris/delusions of grandeur as she has, she’s still way more happy than I am. I guess that’s another aspect of my envy. I wish I could have delusions of… well, not grandeur, but of adequacy. I want 1/5th of her ego. I even envy her faith in a deity. As much of a cynic as I am, sometimes I wouldn’t mind having that cushion to fall back on.

Yes, that’s a sort of perfectionism I can relate to, although with my work I’m not convinced people can’t see the imperfections. A lot of what people call laziness is actually perfectionism. Fear of starting because producing anything less than what I want = utter failure. (Not that I’m not lazy too.)

Music really is an extraordinarily personal way of expressing yourself. Maybe especially for singers, since your own biology is the instrument, but for others as well. It’s a helluva risk, and I admire people who can push through the fear and perform anyway. Here you really do have to listen to the majority who seem to love your performances. Take in the critiques that are less than positive and winnow out the good advice/suggestions from the bad. Easier said than done, I know. :slight_smile:

I take criticism well, in public. I have a solid reputation with the readers of my serial fiction for accepting complaints or negative feedback. I thank anyone who takes the time to read my words, because time is truly a gift from the reader to me. And I respond with as much graciousness as I can. Kinda depends on how the criticism is phrased, but generally I can interact with reviewers/reader feedback and manage to avoid the Streisand Effect.

Away from the computer I’ll kick and groan and tear my hair–metaphorically speaking–and let it eat me up for a while. Then I really will do my best to absorb what the commenter said. If it’s intelligent and cogent, I’ll probably incorporate the suggestion for improvement as best I can.

All that said, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that I started this thread the same week I’m waiting to find out whether I got into this writing colony thing for which I applied–an act that’s rare for me, I’ve never entered a contest or applied for an MFA, etc.–and it’s pretty likely that I didn’t make it. I told myself I wouldn’t let it knock me off course too much, there are other conferences I can attend, there are only 14 slots available and the chances were always extremely slim.

And yet here I am, whining about how jealous and petty I am when other people have successes. So I guess fear of rejection (and, in this case, justified fear of rejection) might be a trigger. :slight_smile:

(I haven’t actually heard yet, they went so far as to contact my references last week. But I think they’d’ve got in touch with the successful applicants by now; the program starts in early January.)

Are you sure you’re not a therapist? :slight_smile: Intellectually I know and agree with what you’re saying. And if a friend came to me with my problem, I’d say the same thing, I’d reassure her and try to get her to stop sniping at herself.

I just really really really wanna be one of the former group–the ones who use adversity or obstacles or even just envy as motivators, who only grow more determined to succeed. But I know it’s not going to happen. 49-year-old leopards don’t change their age spots.

As I think HoneyBadgerDC said, I need to accept this and make peace with it. That’s really the only thing I can do. Hard but… hating myself for being toxic is even more toxic, and creates even more hurdles for me to get past.

It’s hurdles all the way down.

In the end all I can sum it up with is: they have purpose. Their existence is validated. To put it concisely (for a change): They matter to others. They are liked.

At my lowest points, I don’t feel I do, or am.

(Except where my siblings and niece are concerned; I’m not that crazy that I think I don’t matter to them.)

I know, I know. Again, intellectually, I know you’re right. I’ve heard that almost all my life–at least since starting therapy, heh.

We were big magical thinkers in my family. Having a negative thought could make it come true. Uttering it was even worse.

So ever since I was little I felt evil. I had a name for my personality: covert/overt. (Yeah I was a weird 10-year-old.) I secretly got mad at my parents or sisters sometimes, or envied people who had more friends than I did, or even just hated some other kid even though I rarely spoke to him/her. But my parents had taught me it was wrong to feel this way and so I hid the emotions. So there was my covert evil side, and my overt placid side.

Despite 20+ years of therapists telling me that it’s what we do with feelings that matters, not the emotions themselves, I’ve found it reeeeally hard to shake off those early lessons in dealing, or rather not dealing, with emotions. Apparently it’s taking longer than we thought. :slight_smile:

I hate to snip out so much of your other comments, because they’re so well considered. But this bit was the most resonant with me.

I think there is a childish “it’s not fair!” virtual stamping of my foot going on here. I learned early that life isn’t fair. I didn’t exactly know why I knew it (my parents never told me about my brother until I was about 11 or so), but the fact that bad things happen to good people, and you have to watch out and not take risks or you’ll court such bad things… that stuff was hammered into my head simply by watching my parents (especially my mom). When I was older and able to think on my own, I felt I’d been born under a dark cloud. I owed my life to my dead brother, I was a social misfit, my mom died when I was 19, I suffered from depression… none of it was fair. And it certainly wasn’t fair that other people didn’t seem (“seem” being the operative word) to have such problems.

But those other people’s lives aren’t fair either. They just react differently to their burdens. They’re resilient. I don’t think I am, fundamentally. That’s the thing I work on most, now, with my psych. Acting in some way, any way, when confronted by an obstacle, instead of just folding up like a cheap lawn chair. Even just expressing my disappointment aloud and letting myself feel is better than bottling it up–as you rightly said. (And yet I hate to hear, or in this case read, myself. It’s very uncomfortable for me to be this forthright. Especially here, where I know whining isn’t tolerated for long. I don’t know what the heck I was thinking this morning!!)

Beautifully put (I hope you’re a writer yourself! If not, consider it!). I think the tie is quite simply my lifelong, deep-down, bone-deep-down fear that I am a waste of atoms, and not very likeable atoms at that.

I try to fight it, I really do. I know some of it comes from my mental illness. But that’s the perniciousness of mental illness. When my own mind is feeding me apparent inaccuracies or half-truths, it’s really hard to discern their true nature.

As an aside, my writing tends to feature dark storylines. You think there’s a connection…?? :slight_smile:

Thank you again for your amazing comments, Blaster Master. They’ve given me a lot to consider.

Hey even sven, thank you. :slight_smile: Yeah, the thing is, why do you think I put so much importance into writing? It’s because none of the other aspects of my life are full, rich, or happy! :slight_smile: If I just had something that I can hold on to, I’d be thrilled. I’m not going to be married, at my age I’m obviously not having kids short of some Guinness Book of World Records-type miracle, I’m cripplingly shy, the aforementioned non-likeability means I don’t have a plethora of friends… Of everything else, my writing is the area over which I think I have the most control. Yep, the eggs are crammed like hell, but it’s the only basket I’ve got. (Fill in your own basket-case joke here.)

I can understand that. I do think that’s why I like and am drawn to editing, or even just proofreading (which, oddly, is more lucrative, but that’s because I have a huge business as a client). First, I can have an instant impact: I can point out that this is incorrect, that can be said more clearly, etc. I’ve seen many light bulbs go off in my author clients’ heads thanks to some questions I’ve asked, or ideas I’ve suggested–and I do love that feeling. I kinda wish I had me as a mentor, except of course without knowing that I’m secretly jealous of myself and trashing me on a message board, albeit pseudonymously.

…Yeah that sentence would be red- or blue-penciled by me if a client sent it my way.

:smiley: :smiley: You’re a smarter man than I am, Gunga Din. Yes, I’m sorta kinda feeling that I’ll regret having not deleted this as mentioned in the very first line of my OP.

Sounds like a deal! Probably gonna be a rocky voyage. And if one of us gets successful, we’d both better be really careful to sleep with one eye open!

Yes, yes, yes, yes! I love collaboration. I wouldn’t have started that fiction serial without my former work colleague (yep, both of us skiving off our jobs to create a text-based soap opera!), and though she had to back out of the project about a year in–and that’s 1998, so that was a long time ago–I still look on those early days as the most fun I’ve had as a writer. The serial’s improved since, become more of a dense, complex work rather than a near-satire, and I do love it. But if it were possible I would take that partner (or another, if I found someone likeminded) in a heartbeat. I spring to life with ideas with other people.

The same goes for other group writing projects, even an online RPG I’ve been playing for ages, or my developmental editing–of course, these aren’t my stories, but the brainstorming brings me to life, as does the satisfaction of helping someone improve or untangle the tale they want to tell. And, believe it or not, Lynda and I are collaborating on a work (I’m basically rewriting most of it), though that’s been put on hold due to her other multitudinous projects.

Nice work if you can get it! :slight_smile: But wise words nonetheless.

MANY THANKS to you all for listening to my rambling and kvetching and neuroses-airing. Boy if I were ever to get successful I would have to bribe the Reader to nuke this thread, big time.

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Yeah, I should have put in the caveat that I don’t think it’s easy. I just don’t think there are many shortcuts.

About collaboration, maybe start broadcasting that you are interested in collaboration and work on some little projects with people to see if you can find someone who clicks with you?

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" The Collaboration" The title of the novel I am working on. Now if I could just learn how to write.