I’ve got a bit of personal rage toward the religion… A very much beloved relative died of an ailment that could easily have been treated by conventional medicine…
It is very peculiar: the individual adherents of the faith seem to be among the very nicest people on earth. But the actual rules of the faith are murderous.
The supposed rules you are referring to don’t exist. There is no prohibiton of medical technology in Christian Science and never has been.
No, just peer pressure in the case of adults, and indoctrination from both the parents and the church in the case of the innocent children who are hurt.
The local Christian Science pastor, himself, appears to be unaware of this. He (gently and kindly) explained that medical technology was not appropriate, and that prayer would cure all ills.
Is it possible there are “reform” and “orthodox” congregations? What you say may be true in some congregations, but not in one, at least. The consequences were lethal.
Have you come up with a cite from a neutral source for just one case of a CS healing yet that includes before-and-after medical reports? With all the healing that has been been claimed by its proponents this shouldn’t be a problem, right?
Christian Science Churches don’t have pastors. The services are conducted by members elected from the congregation for fixed terms, usually two to three years.
I would like to know which church and pastor you are referring to. It would be completely unlike any I have ever attended, and I have attended dozens as my business travel for years took me all over the US.
There is a collection taken at Sunday Services which is used to maintain the branch church and pay electric and gas bills etc. An elected board handles maintenance of each branch church. Rotation in office of readers and board members is in the bylaws of every branch church I have known about.
The purpose of CS branch church membership and attendance is to aid students of Christian Science in improving their understanding of how best to connnect with God, and to provide a place to meet with others pursuing the same goal.
Studying Christian Science is an individual endeavor. It is the exact opposite of a cult. The goal is the ability to heal spiritually, and the test is whether healing is actually achieved. If healing is achieved, the previous symptoms are gone and perfect normalcy is present. If symptoms are still present, the condition is not healed.
There are not reform or orthodox congregations. The defiining element is the use of the Christian Science Textbook, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures by Mary Baker Eddy, which is keyed to the King James Version of the Bible.
The weekly Lesson Sermon is published in a quarterly and presented on Sunday by the elected Readers. Many students of CS, including me, study it during the week. If you want to hear last week’s lesson/sermon, this link to the original CS Church in Boston will provide it: http://christianscience.com/church-of-christ-scientist/the-mother-church-in-boston-ma-usa/sunday-church-services-and-wednesday-testimony-meetings/online-sunday-services
As I have said previously in this thread, I let my prayers guide me in the choice of medical tachnology or spiritual healing. Since the original experience that got me into CS, I have mostly chosen spiritual methods, but have used medical technology when led to do so.
All the Christian Scientists I know do the same. The actual behavior that I have seen in over fifteen years of membership is the exact opposite of what you are inferring in your post above.
I practice it because it works, if it didn’t I wouldn’t do it.
I have said several times in this thread that the book Spiritual Healing In A Scientific Age by Peel has a number of them. I don’t have a copy handy but it you really want to look into it, get a copy and check it out.
The book was written to answer questions like yours.
The inability of people who have never seen or experienced it to believe it can happen seems to be almost total. All I can say is that I have experienced it too many times to count, as have most other Christian Scientists.
The apparent material reality that you hang onto so intensely is purely a creation of your human beliefs. It can change instantly, seemingly violating the commonly understood laws of physics.
The reason it can change instantly is because it was only an illusion, projected on your human body by your human mind, which is controlled by your beliefs.
Since human beliefs are so complex, and because their interaction with day to day experience creates such a huge number of possible outcomes, the only practical way to be free of their negative influence is to connect with the Creator and express His perfection.
In His presence disease and discord cannot exist. False beliefs are seen through and no longer have any influence in your experience.
Obviously, the whole exercise requires belief in an all powerful God. If you don’t believe in God, or if you believe him to be other than Pure Undonditional Love, you will not be able to use Him to heal.
In Child Deaths, a Test for Christian Science (New York Times)
Are you going to claim these children lacked the faith needed for healing or are you willing to blame the healers?
Or is God willing for an innocent child to suffer because someone else failed?
I don’t know. I plan to see the movie by Val Kilmer, a Christian Scientist, and see where he goes with it.
I have enjoyed the Twain I have read, but his opinion on CS would not have any influence over my practice of it.
Apparently, you lack understanding of what constitutes proof.
Self reported stories with no verification is not acceptable by any rational person.
Does the book contain the specific information I am asking for? I need a specific case that can be independently verified that shows the before-and-after medical reports of a healing. I do NOT want the anecdote teller reporting what it says-I want to see the actual report, and I want to be able to check to see if it is real. Does this book provide what I am looking for, or is it more stories like yours?
You are the one that brought up Samuel Clemens as some sort of verification/vindication. Samuel Clemens mocked CS in that quote you provided-it was his second daughter that dabbled in CS years after Mr. Clemens died, and she lost her interest in it soon after.
All I can say is: I was there.
Southern California, San Diego area. Beyond that, it would not be fair for me to say, as the survivors and family are still around and would not want to be identified. Again, I was there and saw this, personally. Your mileage may vary; if so, I’m glad, for it was one of the most evil things I have ever seen in my life. Maybe it wasn’t really a “Christian Science” church, but one that called itself that. Maybe the Pastor was grossly ignorant of his own faith and beliefs.
(I once chatted for a while with a Seventh Day Adventist Pastor who obviously did not comprehend his own church’s tenets. It was almost comical, save that it was so tragic.)
An ill person was steered away from medical care, and died as a result, at the explicit direction of the pastor of the church. I can think of few things in this world that are as evil as that.
Chistian Science churches aren’t very different from one another based on my experience of years of attending them across the US.
The textbook, Science and Health With Key to the Scriptures by Mary Baker Eddy has an account of her use of morphine as a painkiller, and specifically says to use any means if you are not getting results.
The significant breakthrough IMO is her discovery of the illusory nature of this human experience and the effect of our beliefs on our bodies. I believe this is what Jesus tried to make clear in his teachings. That is the reason that there are constant references to flesh as opposed to spirit throughout the New Testament.
The Wall Street Journal had an article on placebos that is interesting. It was one of the most emailed recently: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204720204577128873886471982.html#mod=most_emailed_day
Christian Science has had an amazingly positive effect on my life, and although there is an endless series of claims in this thread that what I experienced was not really a healing of an actual medical problem, the fact remains that I had not been able to climb two flights of stairs for months with stopping to let the angina diminish. Then, after a Christian Science employee offered to help me through silent prayer, all symptoms vanished overnight, and I also had an amazing spiritual experience as part of the process. I have seen accounts of near death experiences that were similar. Truly a sense of Peace that passeth understanding.
I love this from Philippians, Chapter 4, Verse 7:
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
I had not been to church for decades since I was a teenager. I started attending his CS Church, later joined it, and am very grateful that I found it.
I have become well acquainted with the Bible, and my life is much enlarged by the experience.
If the Bible is your main source of information, you are not enlarged, but severely limited. Limited to the paucity of knowledge of 2000 years ago, when life was nasty, brutish, and short. Hope and fantasy substituted for science.
What if, instead of treating it as a history of a desert tribe, you sought a spiritual meaning from its stories, as Mrs. Eddy recommended?
What if a lot of its stories were actually metaphorical, and apply to humanking in any age? Mrs. Eddy warned against taking the Bible literally decades before it was fashionable.
Among other things, the Bible is an account of the evolution of an idea, monotheism, that IMO is the truth of our existence. Not only of monotheism but of an all powerful God as a spirit, and a God who is Pure Undonditional Love.
As Paul said to the Athenians:
19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing. )
22 ¶ Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Why choose such an awful, ignorant book for your spiritual inspiration? Can’t you find some in War and Peace? All the President’s Men? Jane Eyre?
And it’s not even a history of a desert tribe. The wandering Israelites are unlikely to have ever existed, as the archaeological evidence is sparse and the idea of that number of nomads surviving in the Sinai for that long, preposterous. Very little of the “history” can be corroborated with other sources.
What if they were? How many apply to this age? How about the bible’s instructions on how to treat your slaves, how not to mix different fibers in your clothes, how to prostitute your daughters, how to burn your animals, how to kill your enemies without mercy? Do we follow those today?
Here is a list of 1311 biblical quotes where God threatens to (and does) kill, maim, slaughter, toss you into eternal fire, and worse, all because He can. And this is how He treats his “childen,” the ones he created and loves? Unconditional love, my ass. This creature is a pathological monster.
If Mrs. Eddy (who discovered CS healing) felt pain, why did not her prayers remove this “non-existant” pain?
Morphine is a physical substance, and cannot affect a spirit (according to Mrs. Eddy)
So, why would she need a drug, if she was adept at healing through prayer?
What about animals and their illnesses and pain? What causes those? Do you argue that humans, who can get the identical illnesses as animals, are cured through belief in God, but animals, who have no concept of God, require medical intervention? Same illness, but different causes and cures? Or should humans pray for animals’ cure? If so, what caused the animal disease, then? How do you reconcile this?
And what can my cat do when she gets sick? I know for a fact she is an atheist!
But my dog’s OK. He’s Catholic.