Definitely better stated.
The issue though isn’t that the word is being buried because of ignorance. It’s that some people put an inordinate amount of energy into defending the use of a word that fell out of favor a long time ago, if it ever was in favor.
Nzinga mentioned “faggot” and it’s an apropos example, even though you seemed to take issue with it. “Faggot” has more meanings than just a gay slur, but most reasonable people will steer clear of calling cigarettes “fags” for risk of appearing like pretentious asses. This has as much to do with it sounding like a gay slur as it does its relative obscurity. It doesn’t matter that “niggardly” and “nigger” are two different words. “Faggot = bundle” and “faggot = gay slur” are two different words too. The meanings are what makes them two different words, not the spelling and pronunciation.
Any intelligent person would be able to grasp that what a speaker meant if they paid attention to the context, and yet they still would have very good reason to think that someone dropping “faggot” into casual conversation was trying to be disingenuously provocative. It’s no different with “niggardly” to me.
I’m the least PC person I’ve ever met and I would never dream of using the n word or any derivative thereof.
Funny, a similar discussion came up in another thread about houses.
Despite my flip answer earlier in the thread, I have an example where I don’t use a perfectly useful english word because of it’s other meanings. **Ms. Attack **speaks a different idiom than I do, and it took me a long time to figure out that ‘use a spade in the garden’ means ‘use a shovel in the yard’. I also realised at the same time that I don’t use the work ‘spade’ except in cards. Yes, I’m from the south, and yes, I’ve heard the word used as a racial epthet many times. I just say “shovel”.
Well, the reason I took exception to “faggot” is that “faggot” is a word which actually has a popular meaning. “Niggardly” does not. It just sounds like it does.
There is no actual slur-word use of “niggardly”. It is unlike “faggot” or “fag” or “gay” in this. Mistaking “niggardly” for an ethnic slur is simply ignorant, not an example of a true mistake, because “niggardly” does not have any popular meaning at all. Now, there is a perfectly good excuse for the ignorance - people may never have herd “niggardly” used in context before. But surely not, once its use has been explained, to continue to insist on the ignorance.
Another example: one may say that another person “kited” a cheque. The term “kited” is reasonably rare, in normal conversation. It sounds sort of like “kike”, which is an anti-Jewish slur. Should one avoid its use, because it may offend Jews and others who are ignorant of the meaning of “kited” (a form of cheque fraud) and mistake it for “kiked” (presumably, with a similar meaning of ‘cheat’, but as an anti-semitic slur)?
I use it, though not for race-baiting purposes. I use it for stupid baiting purposes. But then I’m a large black man.
It isn’t a derivative of the n-word. It just sounds like it might be.
The two words are entirely unrelated in origin.
I realize isn’t relevant to the analogy, but for the record, faggot is one word with several meanings. One is offensive, and in the U.S. at least, the others are hardly ever used. Nigger and niggard are separate words that come from different languages and never meant the same thing. They just sound alike. I found staff reports about both: “Is “niggardly” a racist word?” and "How did “faggot” get to mean “male homosexual”?"
A “spade” is a different tool than a “shovel”. (wiki) The term shovel is sometimes used interchangeably with spade, but shovels generally are broad-bottomed and better suited for moving loose materials, whereas spades tend to be pointed for use as a digging tool.
But so what? My point is that it doesn’t take ignorance to think ill of someone who uses “niggardly”. An intelligent person who is perfectly familiar with the sundry meanings of “faggot” can still be offended when someone uses that word to refer to cigarettes, even while knowing perfectly well what the person meant. It’s not confusion that gets in the way of communication in this case. It’s the impression that the speaker is trying to be cute and obnoxious.
Again, it’s not about mistaking anything. The pro-niggardly side keeps falling back on the canard that this is all about people not knowing what “niggardly” means. At this point, as much as we’ve had meta-discussions about the damn thing, most people know what “niggardly” means. So it’s not about ignorance. It’s about being obnoxious by using a relatively inaccessible word to communicate a concept that could easily be communicated using a whole bunch of other words, even while knowing that the word sounds like a slur and has a reputation as such.
I have never heard this usage before, so I can’t really empathize with anyone who wants to use “kited” like that to communicate effectively with someone they don’t know very well. And I’m going to assume that your question involves a speaker talking to a relative stranger, otherwise they should already know how likely it is they will cause offense from their word choice.
Spade is a slur? Ive never heard it used that way.
Yup, this is quite correct, and when I read books from England, I appreciate the meaning of the term.
However, ‘spade’ is not a term commonly used for a digging tool where I grew up, although I know it, and it is a term too commonly used for black people where I grew up, which is one of the many reasons I no longer live there. So, I’m happy with ‘shovel’.
Not at all. I’ve been accused of trying to “sound smart” since I was a kid when I’m just using words that come naturally to me. Not that I say cromulent on a regular basis, it was just an example.
You are mistaking my meaning.
“Faggot” is a word with multiple meanings, one of which (used the majority of the time here in N. America) is, in fact, offensive.
“Niggardly” is not. It has only one, single meaning. It is not derived from the offensive racial slur “nigger”. It simply sounds like it might be.
That’s the point: it only “sounds like a slur”. It isn’t a slur. There is nothing whatever “obnoxious” about it - albeit, it is a trifle archaic-sounding.
My favorite comment on this alleged controversy is from Julian Bond, who was at the time chairman of the NAACP, commenting on offense taken as a result of an incident in which an aide to the Mayor of Washington was fired for using “niggardly” (and then rehired): “You hate to think you have to censor your language to meet other people’s lack of understanding”.
Wise words, those.
Really? One shouldn’t use an entirely appropriate and specific word, simply because it might give offense to the ignorant?
This is essentially assigning the ignorant with veto powers over our language. I don’t buy it.
I don’t celebrate christmas. But if you tell me you are dead serious with this, I will consider it *better *than Christmas and be forever in your debt.
ETA: Try this.
So do I. And even though I’m sure that all of my social and professional peers know what the word means, I don’t talk about it unless I’m trying to amuse my inner 12-year-old or get a reaction from my audience’s inner 12-year-olds and/or inner church ladies. In most every setting, I “chew,” “chomp,” or in extreme situations “grind between my teeth.” “Masticate” is an obscure enough word that I would only use it because it has a nuance that none of the near synonyms have or because I’m going for a specific effect. “Niggardly” is in the same category.
In the meantime, keep on masticating that chicken.
nigger-rigged
niggerish
nigglets
I’ve heard all three of these phrases used before. None of them are real words, but their derivation is clear. Now, it would take an incredibly obtuse person to not see how “niggardly” could not be heard as “niggerly”, a word very much like the “made-up” ones above. Even if one KNOWS “niggardly” is a real word without racial implications, it still manages to press that “oh know they didn’t!” button. Why are people not understanding this?
The fact that Marley was only able to find one instance of a Doper using “niggard” or “niggardly” non-contentiously demonstrates that all this “we must protect the word from the ignorant!” stuff is just a bunch of bull. Usually, no one uses this word unless they want to be a jerk or to make some kind of allusion to the very discussion we’re having now. What that tells me is that people are focusing way too much on the importance of this word than what is warranted.
As usual, it depends on context. The word ‘masticate’ is commonly used in a non-jokey context - here’s an example from this very board:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=558607&highlight=masticate
Usually, it is possible to tell from context if one is (say) attempting to shock old ladies, or is using a word for meaning.
We understand it perfectly well. We simply refuse to allow an entirely ignorant knee-jerk reaction to censor our language.
How, btw, do you feel about those who have “niggling” doubts? Is “niggling” (meaning minor and persistant) offensive, or not? It’s a commonly-used word, also not derived from the slur - are we supposed to avoid that as well, because someone might at some point find it offensive?
You are incorrect - Marley found 650 hits for “niggardly” and stopped looking after he found a serious use.
Though no one is arguing that anything much would be lost if we lost that particular word.
What I’m arguing is the same as that argued by the chairman of the NAACP: “You hate to think you have to censor your language to meet other people’s lack of understanding”.
Yes I’m aware it originated there. But it has taken on a life as a “smart sounding” word with a known meaning. That’s probably why I like it. :).