"Nigga" versus "Nigger"

Great Debates
1

Got into a HUGE debate with two ex-co-workers not too long ago over the use of the “N”-word. They were white and I am not, and they had this pretended confusion about why black people could say “nigger” amongst themselves and they could not with their black friends.

I said: (mostly joking) Most of them aren’t saying “nigger”, anyway; they’re saying “nigga.”

To which white guy A replies: “That makes no sense!!” (Duh.)

To which white guy B got REALLY upset and started blasting me for pretending there’s a difference and black people for splitting hairs by inventing the variation in the first place. “That’s so stupid. As if the end of the word makes a difference to what it means. If they can say ‘nigger’ or ‘nigga’, WE should be able to use it, too.”

I say: They’re wrong. There IS a difference using a word if an exclusive group of people insist that there’s a difference. The reality is that the word has an automatically different connotation coming from the mouth of someone black to someone black than if a white person does it.

But many other otherwise carefully reasoned people refuse to be swayed by any such arguments, saying that ANY black person who employs the word is engaged in a form of self-hatred. I say them niggas is crazy.

Right or wrong, use or lose it? What saith the board?

2

At a camp I went to a few years back I was in a bunk with mostly black kids. Nice guys. Liked em a lot, they thought I was a bit odd. Called me one crazy nigger. I’m white. Real white. They also made me an honary member of the Wolf Pack (not really a gang, though they called it that on occasion).

Anyway I have a feeling it has to do with familiarity and the perception of how the word is being used. When I used the word nigger in my story it was different than using it by calling someone a dirty nigger. Likewise its different than when one black person calls another one a nigger. Dialect variations in pronounciation have nothing to do with whether its offensive or not.

I’ve seen hispanic individuals with lots of black friends who say nigger with no (visible) hostility resulting. Same with Asians. I think that white people aren’t allowed to use it because when a white person uses it the assumption is they are being racist. I’m sure that some white individuals can say it to their very good friends, especially if those friends often say it among themselves. However they probably restrain themselves around unfamiliar black people, aware of the hostility likely to result from perceived racism.

Interestingly two years ago my friend brought something up about this. He was a camp counselor for the 6th grade group at the local day camp. Fairly affluent community, not extraordinarly diverse (mostly wealthly Jewish families). Anyway several of the kids were wondering, and asked black campers/counselors/staff why they couldn’t say nigger. They listened to a lot of rap, its used fairly often in rap and they wondered why they couldn’t say it. Not many of them were racist, they had fairly little concept of racist implications of the word, but knew they weren’t supposed to say it because they’d be thought of as a racist (they were trying to understand why).

I think that as race becomes less of an issue using nigger will become less of an issue. Ideally people will of all races will be able to great any other person regardless of race with, “What up my nigga.” if they so choose.

3

Wrong.

I get sick of the rascist shit turned out by ignorant black comedians like “The PJ’s.”

Who produces this shit?

The PJ’s does not excuse stereotyping of blacks as lazy, ignorant, etc., the PJ’s has no excuse in the first place.

It may be trite,but I think it’s time for a SDMB field trip to <u>Bamboozled.</u> Maybe not the best Spike Lee ever, but pertinent in a pop culture that assumes the enforcement of stereotypes, offensive language, etc. is acceptable because the ‘joke’ is against the person who said it.

4

Threemae: I’m right with you on calling the PJS a piece a crap. That bit of pop culture phlegm is courtesy of none other than Eddie Murphy – he of the flatulent, obese, Klump Klan Kinemas. Only a nigga could get away with that. Can you imagine the outrage if Spielberg had produced it?

The Tim: It would be a glorious world if everyone COULD say “What up, my nigga” – but the very last holdouts would be upper middle class racially sensitive black bourgeoise. I can’t see Bryant Gumbel rolling up to Tiger Woods and saying it.

5

You just don’t have enough imagination :smiley:
Cause I can see it, and its funny.

Regardless I don’t think that UMCRSBBs (doesn’t have the same ring as WASPs I’m affraid) are going to make much of a difference in this case. Racial sensitivity is going down, and those last hold outs are going to be thought of as mighty strange.

6

To me, neither word is acceptable use for anyone. And I do instantly lose respect for anyone who either form of the word.

-amarinth

7

I think it’s part and parcel of a larger trend. Since it is such a loaded word, the people to whom the word is applied use it so that if someone uses it as an insult, it stings less. Like if a gay man called himself and his friends a bunch of fags, or a jew called himself a kike (that I’ve actually heard).

Does that make any sense? The group to whom the term is applied can use it because they KNOW they don’t mean anything by it. Any stranger of another group better not use it because they’re NOT of the group.

I would think that the reason other minority groups can say it is because they, too, have historically been oppressed, thus sharing a kinship.

So, do black people say it as a preventive defense mechanism, do you think? And can white people not say it because they’re the reason the word became offensive in the first place?

8

Surgoshan: I think you’ve got it, I agree absolutely. That’s also one of the first arguments I had in using saying it’s okay to use the word exclusively within the group. It’s more empowering to use the word (if you must) but denying anyone outside your ethnos to using the same, no matter the circumstances.

Chris Rock had this funny line in his book about white people that goes something like, “Chris, can I call you nigger?” His response: “Why would you want to?”

Now, because the monolithic “black community” doesn’t exist, not all black people will let you get away with calling them “nigga” even if you ARE black. Almost without exception I find that these are corporate-climbing brothers and sisters or those rare black conservatives who have achieved some measure of socioeconomic success away from, say, the hip-hop set. (i.e., multimillionaire Master P says ‘nigga’, multimillionaire Oprah wouldn’t dream of it). I don’t want to suggest they shy away from other black people but it is certainly done as a measure of distancing themselves from quote-unquote ignorant folks. amarinth’s attitude sums it up pretty much.

9

Not only do I have a problem with “nigger,” but I also have a problem with “fuck,” “shit,” and numerous other words that should not be used in mixed company, mainly because I don’t understand it.

I guess, being white, there isn’t a good racial slur? Come on. Cracker, honkey, white trash, hillbilly…none of them mean a thing to me. I wouldn’t even get mad if someone called me that while obviously yelling at me. Serf? HAHA, that historically fits, but who knows.

Anyway, the whole “exclusive word use” is bs IMO. If I am around a black person that says nigger, I say nigger. If he doesn’t, I don’t. Same thing with swearing. Your boss says shit, find it ok to use shit around him. I give the black person the right to use it first, without me possibly imposing something on him, but once its out its fair game. Don’t talk to me if I can’t speak the same english as you.

The PJ’s, as well, does nothing in my mind to stereotype black people in general. Having worked for half a year in the projects, I found that show to be both true-to-life and amusing. I also found the fat racist pig archie bunker amusing, so maybe I have no sense of humor. Having seen that show time and time again does nothing to me when I see some black guy or gal on the street. I do not automatically panic, sweat, swear, or lock my car doors. Its just a funny tv show (but I probably wouldn’t want my kids watching it).

I am friends with an arab whose nickname is very, uh, desert-like. We call him, as well, a dirty Jew, a sand nigger, etc etc. He, in turn, finds many glorious reasons that he is glad he isn’t white. Racism is a bully, but I think its going away. When we can joke about it, see, it ceases to have such a bite.

10

“Laughter is the most powerful force in the world, it can tear to atoms and shreds any entrenched institution with a single blast” Mark Twain

Let’s drag this monstrosity out into the sunlight, point our fingers and laugh. Racism will wither and die like an worm on a griddle. So bet it, sez this peckerwood.

In the meantime, I will wait until I get a clear signal that such humor and tolerance is appreciated for what it is.

11

I don’t think it ever will. We live in a day and age where people live to be able to stand up, bitch about something, be heard and get their way.

For example, I have (had?) a buddy who invited me over to his place. (It was really our ‘first’ social meeting. We met once before but it was a ‘business’ situation.)

He introduced me to his wife. She’s black and I have no problem with that…it dodn’t shock me in the least.

Now these two are a great bunch. Fun couple and a bit on the wild side.

We all went out to dinner that night and me being Scottish and being able to do impressions, she asked me to imitate a ‘Scottish Gangsta Rappa’. She thought it would be funny to hear.

So I did…I spoke like a “Gangsta Rappa” and did it in a Scottish accent and started by saying, (Now you gotta picture this with the accent.) “Here I am, sitting. With my nigga’s and my hommies…” and I went on.

I started to hear less and less of them after that. It turns out that my buddy’s wife was offended.

Huh? It was an impression! And SHE asked me to do it?

Did I do something wrong? I did’t think so…with the way these to acted, I mad the assumtion that it would be seen for its humor. (How many Scottish Gangsta Rappers have you heard?)…but it only goes to show ya…ya just never know.

12

Not clear on whether your “default” mode of speech has is thickly scottish, but by asking someone to do impressions there can only be two things:

  1. Its interesting
  2. Its funny

Or a combination of the two. If it is any part of the latter, its damn hypocritical IMO. I think you were right on. If she had, for example, asked you to imitate a scottish hillbilly, and you made a comment about incest, I think it would have been in poor taste but funny nonetheless. And I doubt (can’t be certian) that she would have been as offended. And she definitely asked for it with “gangster rappers,” no doubt about that. I’ve heard much of the music.

People can poke fun at everyone but themselves, it seems. But that isn’t a black issue (and you didn’t imply it, so don’t think I’m implying you did), we all know that we’ve got boundaries that “you just don’t cross.” Bullshit. Cross them. We’ve had more people die for such pent-up frustratingly different beliefs throughout human history that I say its time to break the damn wall.

[/rant]

13

My natural accent is “Canadian” (If there is such a thing :smiley: ) But bringing out the Scottish accent is a snap.

Thank for the support, of sorts. This situation has haunted me for ages…I felt SO bad for offending her as it was the farthest thing from my intent. But my co-worker here told me, “Hey…she’s the one with the problem…not you.” I believe that…but it still urks me sometimes.

14

Doubleclick- listen to your friends. You did nothing wrong, and frankly it sounds like a pretty funny impression. I don’t know what she was expecting- I mean, a rap about haggis, soccer and a pint might not have been as amusing (and she probably wouldn’t have gotten it anyway)!

It has been debated ad nauseum on this board- either everyone needs to be vanilla, or everyone needs to relax.

But you were cool, no misstep on your part.

15

I mean football.

BAD AMERICAN! NO TREAT!

16

LOLOLOLOLOL!

DAMN YOU! I’M OFFENDED!!! LOL :smiley:

17

FWIW, I don’t think a particular group should use a word that it contends is offensive. It just makes no sense to say “it’s offensive when YOU say it but not when I say it.” I mean, I know people DO this, but I just don’t understand it. Which, BTW, is why I, as a woman, never call my girlfriends bitches.

18

Eek, I was just about to use the “bitches” example. Unlike Jodi, my female friends and I gleefully call each other bitches, sluts, whores, etc. BUT, none of us are particular happy when we hear some, ugh, male use those words, because we know they’re using them in a derogatory sense.

The “nigga”/“nigger” problem isn’t exactly the same, because a white person isn’t necessarily using it as an insult, but whether you like it or not, there is a certain historical resonance to that and other racial slurs. Blacks using the dreaded “n-word” aren’t engaging in self-hate; if anything they’re reclaiming some self-pride. Okay, that is a bit of a lofty claim, but face it, two black people calling each other “nigger”, or two gay guys calling each other “queer” or two women calling each other “bitches” is way different from some outsider doing the same. Unless of course, the outsider happens to be down with the folks he/she’s speaking to. I can just picture Scalia rolling up to Clarence Thomas saying, “Yo yo yo, what it is my nigga!” Scary.

19

Ya know… I have a male friend who calls me a whore/bitch/cunt/whatever… and I say the same things, if not WORSE back to him… in a loving manner… and I dont think either of us have ever been offended. Its all in the context and tone. If I thought he was name calling to hurt me or belittle me, I’d be pretty damned pissed off.

I also make it a point to call my white/black/yellow/purple friends my niggaz whenever I feel inclined to do so. I dont know if this offends black people and quite honestly, so long as Chris Rock is making the kind of money he is, I could care less.

The boys making millions and everyone loves him (myself included), but he throws words like “cracker” “white trash” and “peckerwood” around like they’re nothing. I suppose the argument would be that if you were on the persecuting side, you shouldnt be able to use nigger/kike/bitch/fag/etc.

But guess what? Ive never personally persecuted ANYone.

Assuming that Im just being racist because Im white is no different than me accusing a black guy of being a gangbanger/criminal.

In any case, if I feel like mocking the hip-hop genre (which I do, because I spend too much time listening to DMX, Tribe, Nelly, and after awhile you -catch- yourself using the same slang) I see nothing disrespectful about it.

If the usage of the word were THAT big of a deal, you wouldnt use it either.