Ok, I understand the part about “imprisoned” meaning in a cage. Such as a bird, lizard, fish, snake, or gerbal or some other small animal. But having cats, how the hell does this guy say it’s imprisoning them!.. Me and my family used to rescue stray cats in the wild, clean them up, and they’d become part of the family. Small cat’s aren’t really designed to live in the wild. They have been bred to be PETS, just like dogs. They may survive a little while, but not nearly the entirety of a typical lifespan. If this guy thinks that having pet cat’s is imprisoning them, tell him to go… Either that, or let this guy come over to your house and SHOW him the environment your cats live in and how much your cats love your place. If this doesn’t satisfy him, he definitely needs to be given the chance to live like a homeless person, digging for trash, can’t get a job, struggles to eat, and has no social life. See how he enjoys that.
My impression, having heard the argument a few times, is that the term ‘imprisoned’ might be figurative - in the sense that we’re coercing the pets to do things we want them to do, rather than letting them have the freedom of the wild.
[QUOTE=Mangetout]
My impression, having heard the argument a few times, is that the term ‘imprisoned’ might be figurative - in the sense that we’re coercing the pets to do things we want them to do, rather than letting them have the freedom of the wild.
[/QUOTE]
I find this to be very understandable under certain measures, like I previously stated, for animals such as birds, lizards, etc… These animals that NEED to be in a cage/tank CAN live in the wild without a problem.
As for cats and dogs, we’ve bred them to be house pets. They are like babies, that never grow out of that toddler age. They need our support just like our kids would. We can only teach them so much and they can only grasp onto so much.
There aren’t enough other house-cats and dogs out their in the wild to protect their own kind steadily enough to keep their species in existence. We’ve basically been dumbing them down over the years and teaching them to survive without having to do anything at all. Not forgetting to mention, we train them NOT to be aggressive.
House pets are like robots, programmed to to specific things. Surviving on their own is not one of them.
[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
I’d trade places with the Neville kitties in a minute. Let them go out to work, let me stay at home and sleep.
[/QUOTE]
These are two common tongue-in-cheek comments that are made about pets, especially about cats.
Cute, but they imply that pets are like humans. If that’s true, then do pets have any “rights”?
Some will argue that it’s ludicrous to talk about any “rights” for animals, in contrast to humans having a moral obligation to do what’s *right * with animals. But, there are counterarguments. And, as Peter Singer points out:
http://www.animal-rights-library.com/texts-m/singer02.htm
Maybe the guy in the OP is an “insane PETA asshole.” Or maybe he’s just in the process of evaluating his views on animals rights.
Human rights are all about keeping humans from inflicting harm on each other.
Animals, left to their own devices, tend to eschew these niceties.
[QUOTE=DianaG]
Animals, left to their own devices, tend to eschew these niceties.
[/QUOTE]
As do humans.
You’re right of course.
But I guess the point I’m trying to make is that no one would argue that a lion has the right to not be abused by other lions.
[QUOTE=Duhkecco]
Maybe the guy in the OP is an “insane PETA asshole.” Or maybe he’s just in the process of evaluating his views on animals rights.
[/QUOTE]
$10 on the former.
(Isn’t “insane PETA asshole” a tad redundant?)
Of course pets have rights, that is why we have the ASPCA and other organizations. If an animal is being abused or neglected and it is reported then the authorities will come in and remove the animal from that environment much the same way they will with children. But to say that my cats are the same as coyotes or grizzly bears is insane. My cats are the product of thousands of years of selective breeding and dogs have been selectively bred for thousands of years before that. These are not creatures that will benefit from being released into the wild. Cats and dogs are to people the way aphids are to ants, where the aphids trade highly sugarized byproducts that they produce in return for protection from other insects. It is a highly evolved mutual symbiotic relationship from which everyone involved, be they animal or human, benefits.
[QUOTE=kk11]
I find this to be very understandable under certain measures, like I previously stated, for animals such as birds, lizards, etc… These animals that NEED to be in a cage/tank CAN live in the wild without a problem.
As for cats and dogs, we’ve bred them to be house pets. They are like babies, that never grow out of that toddler age. They need our support just like our kids would. We can only teach them so much and they can only grasp onto so much.
There aren’t enough other house-cats and dogs out their in the wild to protect their own kind steadily enough to keep their species in existence. We’ve basically been dumbing them down over the years and teaching them to survive without having to do anything at all. Not forgetting to mention, we train them NOT to be aggressive.
House pets are like robots, programmed to to specific things. Surviving on their own is not one of them.
[/QUOTE]
As far as I understand it, these are actually components of the ‘humans shouldn’t keep pets’ argument - it’s about meddling with nature, and how we shouldn’t do it - how we’ve ‘imprisoned’ them by subverting their natural behaviours etc.
[QUOTE=Mangetout]
As far as I understand it, these are actually components of the ‘humans shouldn’t keep pets’ argument - it’s about meddling with nature, and how we shouldn’t do it - how we’ve ‘imprisoned’ them by subverting their natural behaviours etc.
[/QUOTE]
It’s too late for the cats and dogs… As long as there are humans on this planet, 99% of all domestic cats and dogs will remain living in rural areas. These organizations are arguing with a wall, it’s going to get them nowhere-people may hear them, but it’s still going to get them nowhere.
As for the other animals, the only possible way for them to become strictly house pets is to become extinct in the wild. And for the chances of this actually occurring, none. We humans don’t control the majority of these populations and never will.
[QUOTE=pbbth]
Of course pets have rights, that is why we have the ASPCA and other organizations. If an animal is being abused or neglected and it is reported then the authorities will come in and remove the animal from that environment much the same way they will with children.
[/QUOTE]
Okay, do animals have the right to “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”? No, those are human rights.
Which *specific * rights do animals have? Do all animals have the same rights? If not, why not?
Were they selectively bred for their benefit or for ours? Do animals have more rights after we breed them?
I’ll leave it that.
[QUOTE=Mangetout]
As far as I understand it, these are actually components of the ‘humans shouldn’t keep pets’ argument - it’s about meddling with nature, and how we shouldn’t do it - how we’ve ‘imprisoned’ them by subverting their natural behaviours etc.
[/QUOTE]
Not so much that we shouldn’t do it, but that we shouldn’t have done it. Domestic animals are entirely different animals than their wild counterparts. Pets were created by human interference, and, like it or not, they are our responsibility.
It is not out of line to argue that perhaps humans should choose not to eat meat or keep pets as a way of gradually setting the cycle back to animals living freely in the wild. Decreasing the demand, so as to eventually decrease the supply, in other words. Though I don’t agree with this, I understand why others would argue that it is the ‘natural’ way of things.
However, I do not see how major evolutionary change is going to happen for the animals’ sake. Vegetarianism seems to be gaining popularity - because of the benefits (both health and environmental) to humans. It is vaguely conceivable - however unlikely - that over hundreds and hundreds of years the demand for meat could go down so much that the domestic food animal will be bred out of existence. But as there doesn’t seem to be any real down side to keeping pets, it is even less likely that the demand will ever become so low - even after hundreds of years - that the species will evolve out of domesticity.
IMO, those who want to “start the back-to-nature cycle now” just have no interest in having pets, and feel that they must justify this as some righteous cause rather than a personal preference.
[QUOTE=Duhkecco]
Okay, do animals have the right to “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”? No, those are human rights.
If you were homeless on the streets, and had to fight off other homeless guys just to get something to eat, would you consider this to be life, liberty and happiness?
Would you complain if one of us “humans” decided to make your “life” a little bit easier and give you everything you needed to survive, as long as you weren’t crazy, stupid, violent, and unmanageable? People remain homeless for these reasons, which is why a lot of pets have to get put down. But hey these homeless people don’t even have a clue what’s going on around them, which is why they remain this way. Same with the unmanageable pets. The only difference is that we put-down the ones that are unworthy, when we should be putting them into the wild. But wait… same thing and they don’t have to get chased down by some other animal and eaten alive.
Which *specific * rights do animals have? Do all animals have the same rights? If not, why not?Were they selectively bred for their benefit or for ours? Do animals have more rights after we breed them?
Animals don’t care about rights. Trust me. If I threw you into a cage with 2 lions your ass would be gone in seconds. That’s NATURE. We were just SMART enough to take advantage of the food chain. Why are you so worried about every other species when the one you should be worrying about is your own. If you want to be a wild animal jump on a plane to Africa, strip down butt-naked, leave everything behind, and enjoy the rest of the 5 minutes of your life.
I’ll leave it that.
[/QUOTE]
Me 2
The previous post didn’t come out right… err…
Well, this is an interesting turn of events…we are getting together tonight at 9 near a place where he has a class and he recommended a few places nearby, several of which are burger joints. He said he is a vegetarian but he doesn’t appear to have a problem with spending time with someone who eats meat and eating someplace that primarily serves meat. I am hoping that he is the same way about pets, that he doesn’t have them for moral reasons but he has absolutely no problem with anyone else having them and just did a poor job of explaining himself when he mentioned the whole pet thing before. I guess I will find out for sure one way or the other later tonight!
Doesn’t the bloke realise that if we didn’t have indoor cats, for instance, the human race would be missing out on ‘lolcatz’ and all their anthropomorphised, declawed and commodified kitty friends?
[QUOTE=pbbth]
Well, this is an interesting turn of events…we are getting together tonight at 9 near a place where he has a class and he recommended a few places nearby, several of which are burger joints. He said he is a vegetarian but he doesn’t appear to have a problem with spending time with someone who eats meat and eating someplace that primarily serves meat. I am hoping that he is the same way about pets, that he doesn’t have them for moral reasons but he has absolutely no problem with anyone else having them and just did a poor job of explaining himself when he mentioned the whole pet thing before. I guess I will find out for sure one way or the other later tonight!
[/QUOTE]
Do let us know! (And good luck - I hope it goes well).
[QUOTE=Staggerlee]
Doesn’t the bloke realise that if we didn’t have indoor cats, for instance, the human race would be missing out on ‘lolcatz’ and all their anthropomorphised, declawed and commodified kitty friends?
[/QUOTE]
Not to mention kitlers
[QUOTE=pbbth]
Well, this is an interesting turn of events…we are getting together tonight at 9 near a place where he has a class and he recommended a few places nearby, several of which are burger joints. He said he is a vegetarian but he doesn’t appear to have a problem with spending time with someone who eats meat and eating someplace that primarily serves meat. I am hoping that he is the same way about pets, that he doesn’t have them for moral reasons but he has absolutely no problem with anyone else having them and just did a poor job of explaining himself when he mentioned the whole pet thing before. I guess I will find out for sure one way or the other later tonight!
[/QUOTE]
My step dad is a vegetarian, my mom is not, and they both love domestic animals. I couldn’t tell you how many we have. They both get along fine. It’s been 16 years, so it must be fine.
He’s against killing animals for food, but is obviously not against having them as pets. Probably because we aren’t slaughtering the cats and dogs to have as our next meal.
So this guy is against both… Might want to take a rain check. Unless of course you enjoy a kitchen limited to; salads, PB&Js, bean burritos, tofu, pasta, cheese pizza, and water. And no kitty to snuggle with on the couch. Haha… Being allergic to animals will be his next excuse.