I’m coming in late to this but I have a genuine question for the people on this board. I mean, generally, yes, I agree with the OP - if you know you can’t afford a kid, don’t have one.
What about people who can afford them and then, you know, shit happens?
I have a really good friend inRL who lives with her parents - she was told by several gynocologists that she could never even HAVE kids and yet managed to get pregnant, so she has a kid. So that’s her and her daughter. Plus her parents. Plus their three kids.
When all of this went down, they were a very well-off family. They owned a very profitable business and had a nice house.
Flash forward five years. Both of the parents got hurt on the job (badly; she fucked up her back and he fucked up his neck) and can’t work now. She has anxiety and has been declared mentally unable to work by the state of Nevada, so she can’t get a job. They’re in abject poverty; but five years ago they had tons of money. They’re hoping for a settlement that probably will never come. On top of it she has heart problems, as does their special needs son, and they have to buy special heart medication for both of them, which takes a good chunk of change. My sister and I bought them Thanksgiving dinner this last November after my friend’s mother started crying in front of me because all they had was a turkey for Thanksgiving - and five years ago, this would never have been a problem. The children, incidentally, are all over the age of nine.
What say you? I’m asking an honest question here, because I know a lot of people who look down at them for living off of welfare, and yet they were totally set when they had the kids. Yes, they had savings, but it got spent on day to day life when the parents had to stop working.
I just want to know the general consensus here and this seemed like the best place to put it.
So why are you pissed at the poor instead of being pissed at the government and society that doesn’t give a shit about you or your children? How 'bout directing some of that anger towards the people who decided that $400 over the top means you get no help? You were one job and $400 away from being one of the women this thread is pointing fingers at.
Really think that if you had qualified, the guy standing behind you at the checkout counter cares about your life story? He sees, woman+child+foodstamps/wic card/whatever+2005 PT Cruiser, and that equals welfare queen.
There’s a war going on, between the haves and the have-nots, if your one pay-check, one hospital bill, one bad thing away from the dole, YOU ARE NOT A HAVE!
CMC fnord!
“You can always hire one half of the poor to kill off the other half.”
I’m not talking about people who have children and are supporting them, then get health issues that stop them from working - I have no problems at all with people in this predicament getting welfare support.
It’s the people who are already on welfare and have one or two children, then keep having more when they already can’t afford the ones they have. This is ethnicities who think large families are the only way, ethnicities who refuse to use contraception, any people who think it is their right to get government money when they have many children that they cannot financially support.
You said this far better than how I tried to. Our ideas of what we “need” to have children have gotten way wierd lately, and maybe if we remembered that the vast majority of the world lives without these “nessecities” we’d be able to spend a lot less of our day sitting around feeling superior to the poor among us. Frankly the idea that someone “can’t afford” a child in America- where you can eat well out of garbage cans- is laughable. The idea that not having a certain amount of material goods means a kid would be better off in an orphanage (where they will never experience love and family) is outright offensive.
Obviously the reasons why people have many children varies according to culture and situation. But people, pretty much universally, want to have children. For most of them, this drive is more important than things like material comfort or social approval. You arn’t going to be able to deny something this fundamental that easlily. But you can look at what makes some cultures more interested in having large families than others, and actually try to do something to address those issues.
Finding real solutions to problems might involve considering that not everyone shares your values and priorities.
Actually, we bought the car after we were back on our feet;).
Did you even read my post? I’m not upset with those who need it - shit happens. I think the vast majority of those out there who are on the programs o need it. However, I think it’s absolutely shitty that there ARE women on it (yes, women I know personally) who drive brand-new $25,000 cars, dress their children in expensive clothing, and purposely PLAN a second child while on WIC. That’s what pisses me off. Not the people who need it, not the people who accidentally get pregnant while on it, but those who decide that they absolutely MUST have another child right then and right there.
And you know what? I think that’s wrong and I would think it was wrong even if I had qualified for some help when I was pregnant and my husband was laid off.
How are people on assistance buying $25,000 cars? They do check your finances rather closely. Do you have any proof that these $25,000 car driving, expensive clothes wearing women are the norm, or just a few isolated cases in your area?
People find themselves in all sorts of situations through no fault of their own. I know a family that was doing well until one of their children got extremely ill and they didn’t have health insurance and they lost everything, house and all.
How long do you think the average family could go if one or both became unexpectedly unemployed? There’s a couple that lives near me and they both worked for the same company that closed down. They couldn’t find jobs in their field and both went to work for places that paid minimum wage just to pay the bills. Their insurance ran out and he has lung cancer.
Everyone isn’t popping out kids and driving to the bank in their Mercedes to cash their welfare checks. I don’t think even the dumbest, laziest people have kids as some kind of get rich quick scheme. Sure there are people that take advantage of the system, but you really can’t generalize and say everyone is based on a few people you come in contact with.
Not to change the subject here but this ties into one of my beefs with military pay.
I’ve been in the military since 1995. I have lived life at every pay grade from E-1-E6 and am now living life as an O2-E so I feel like I can speak with authority on this subject.
AIRMEN: The DoD does NOT have any responsibility to pay you enough so you can have 3 kids by the age of 21 and a stay at home wife on the income of an E-3 so quit acting offended that they don’t.
Yes you make jack shit, but when the military pays to train your ass, they don’t have to pay you a premium for the use of your new technical skills. If you don’t make enough to support your single income family of 5 then you have choices to make. You can get out at the end of your 4 year commitment and find another job that will pay you more. You can get your wife a job, which may not cover the child care costs of 3 kids while she works her min wage job. Or you can NOT HAVE SO MANY FUCKING KIDS!!!
Just because you are proudly serving your country and putting your life on the line fro freedom etc… doesn’t make you less responsible than the guy at McDonalds for making the right choices when it comes to starting a family that you can’t support on your income.
I saw this a lot when my husband was in the Army. I would see families in line at the PX - mom pregnant, one in her arms, and two or three little stairsteps hanging on to her. I realize the military pays for your medical care, but have you considered how you are going to put shoes on them? Some of these guys were E-2 and E-3 - I don’t understand why these women kept popping out babies.
If someone has a setback - hell, that is what welfare was designed for. It was never intended to be something a family got on and never got off. If a family has financial problems - by all means use what is there for you. But don’t keep increasing your financial needs (i.e. having more babies) and expect others to pay for it without some degree of resentment.
I figured, having read the OP. I just wanted some feedback, because I know a lot of people who know this stuff about this family and still look down on them, like they should give up their kids for adoption or something because they got hurt.
Incidentally, my cousin and his girlfriend just had a baby a few days ago and they get everything paid for. It pisses me off to no end - They get WIC, a free apartment, and food stamps for being irresponsible with their birth control, and I, being responsible, can’t even get emergency food stamps when I fall on hard times briefly.
Originally Posted by even sven
Frankly the idea that someone “can’t afford” a child in America- where you can eat well out of garbage cans- is laughable.
If you chose to have a large family and chose to feed them by eating out of garbage cans, I can’t imagine they will be very healthy, but if you aren’t claiming welfare - go for it.
I save my outrage for people getting a free ride that have more than me, not less. Like tax cuts for the wealthy or tax breaks for having a second home or even yacht owners. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/198998_boats10.html
I don’t know about you but it pisses me off a little more that I’m paying about $6.00 a day for an illegal war. I can’t get worked up over the relatively small amount we pay in taxes that goes to welfare or social programs compared to some of the things our tax dollars do go to. Strange the way people enjoy criticizing someone who has less than they do as opposed to someone who has more.
I guess part of my anger is that the middle income earners pay the most per income in taxes. However, if you want children but don’t have them because you can’t afford them, a couple who keep having them and are on welfare have what I might want.
Sure, you’re irresponsible. You’re posting to an Internet message board instead of working for someone, damn you.
Seriously, I’m sure you honestly believe everyone should think like you do, but you can’t be so unobservant as not to notice that few people do. Why do you think that is?
You’re the soul of generosity, you are. Children may eat from garbage cans. Why you would probably allow them to sleep under bridges as well, being so kind and all.
I was trying to point out how inappropriate Even Sven’s comments were. I am grateful that we have a welfare system and would hate any child to have to eat out of garbage cans. I don’t think you have read the entire thread.
Sarahfeena, I’ve got a cite for you: National Center for Policy Analysis. disclaimer: the NCPA is a US think-tank that calls themselves nonpartisan, but they are actually very libertarian and conservative.
I grew up around a lot of second and third generation welfare recipients, they knew the welfare laws better than their social service worker. Every one of them also worked off the books. Not a single one of them ever gave me the impression that they tried to have more kids to rake in more government cheese, there always seemed to be a little worry associated with having another mouth to feed, even back then welfare wasn’t enough to get you to comfort.
In the end you have to decide if forcing parents to watch their kids live in want is the best way to dissuade this sort of behaviour. I mean we all want to teach them a lesson but it seems a bit harsh on the child.
I think this bears repeating. Our society seems to give a free pass to the inequitable privileges of wealth.
When the mediocre children of wealthy families get into Yale, noone says a word. When the Black kid from the ghetto gets into Yale on affirmative action, everyone acts like the Black kid took THEIR kid’s spot.
When the tax burden is disproportionately lightened for the wealthy and the nation accumulates debt that will probably be paid off more proportionally, noone seems to think of this as a wealth transfer to the welathy because they “deserve” their money, good luck and fortune had nothing to do with it. But give a poor family some government cheese and its the end of civilization because now everyone will want to be poor to get that slice of government cheese.
I don’t really resent paying taxes and I pay more in taxes in a given year than most people earn. I really resented paying taxes when I made barely enough to live paycheck to paycheck and the extra $50/week I paid in income taxes would have made the difference between eating bologna sandwiches and tap water or half a chicken and a 2 liter bottle of soda for dinner. I resent when tax money is wasted on Bridges to nowhere and unjustified wars. I resent people who want to limit family planing choices and simoultaneously want to claw back social programs for poor families with children (most good Christians I know do NOT fall into this category, regardless of whether they are pro-choice or pro-life).
