having other posters by your side?

sorry for not saying who i quote this from, and sorry about the name editing. i just want to be clear about this: it does not matter who posted this, to whom it was meant or who ***** is.

this is not the first time ive seen this kind of sentance here on the board, and not the first time ive commented about it.

“less respected”…?
and why is that? isnt he as “likable” as anybody else? doesnt he say “agreeable” things? did he say a “wrong” thing? doesnt he “play along”? are you “mentally” ill?

there are a lot of things to be said, but ill leave them for later…

bj0rn - chickens for sale…!
ps. please note that the bolded text is really what this thread should be about, not just as the written fact, but also in general.


(You know, I find it helps to copy it to WordPad and then fix all the punctuation errors, etc., so they’re not so distracting. Then I usually light some incense, sacrifice a chicken to the spirit of Kate Turabian, and get really drunk. Then it actually starts to make sense.) - notthemama

I think it does matter a lot where you got that quote from, but anyway. I remember it too, and I agree witht the underlying sentiment wholeheartedly.

You basically ask us to like all posters equally, right? Sorry, but no. Respect on these boards -very much as in real life- is earned, not given. Sure, a newbie will be forgiven for his mistakes. Sure, a poster can have a different opinion. Sure, everybody who starts posting here deserves a basic level of respect and hospitality.

But if they fuck it up (which means: repeatedly annoying us after they have been told not to by either posters or mods), they’re doomed.

I don’t really see the problem, I guess.

There are two separate issues, here.

On the one hand, I would agree with bj0rn that each discussion should be based on the merits of the discussion, not on the participants. Dismissing an entire line of thought because it came form the “wrong” person is not fighting ignorance, it is simply supporting cliques.

On the other hand, there are certainly people who have demonstrated an unwillingness or an incapacity to follow a thought logically or to actually review facts. If a poster who has developed a reputation for simply being wrong most of the time wades into a discussion of pure opinion, it is rather unlikely that their opinion will be accorded much respect. If someone else appeals to that opinion for support, everyone else will likely point out that there is no support there.

Does this board engage in personalities over ideas? Yeah, sometimes. I have seen personal bashing that I found inappropriate. That goes two ways, of course. I can think of at least one (now departed) poster who used to post the most illogical and erroneous gobbledegook, but whose first line of defense was to accuse any opponents of having a personal agenda to discredit that poster.

This board is what it is. In two and a half years I have seen the topics and the persons involved swirl around and change, but the basic personality of the MB, itself, rarely changes. Every attempt to “reform” the MB has failed.

If anyone wants to “improve” the quality of the MB or the behavior of its participants, they are welcome to try. I can get a much better sense of accomplishment herding cats or coaching 4-year-olds in teamwork.


Tom~

Agreed that context is everything in this case. As an example…

If a scientific debate on the CvE issue was being had and someone said something to the effect of, “Having Dr. Hovind on your side doesn’t help you,” I would understand the comment.

If the person who is starred out in the OP is a known troll, for example, then yes, it’s a perfectly valid statement.

Now, if it’s a case of a popularity contest, then that does change things somewhat, but there stillm might be shades of gray here.

If this is on the message board anyway, show us where it is, please…


Yer pal,
Satan

http://www.raleighmusic.com/board/Images/devil.gif

I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Two weeks, two days, 12 hours, 22 minutes and 45 seconds.
660 cigarettes not smoked, saving $82.58.
Life saved: 2 days, 7 hours, 0 minutes.

Generally speaking, posters who are considered “less respected” are the ones who post egregious crap most, if not all, of the time. They are the ones who don’t argue logically, but simply call people “asshole” when they don’t agree with them.

Lots of posters say “less agreeable” things, like the few resident bigots we seem to have, and the resident anti-gay posters, and people like that. But if they express themselves reasonably politely, and phrase their arguments logically, then I think they are at least respected for their alternate viewpoints. We may find them irritating, but we don’t accuse them of being trolls.

People who don’t “play along” in the sense that they don’t seem to understand what the point of the SDMB is, are not respected. Some people come to this MB just to vent their spleen and anger at the world in general. The rest of us, Bjorn, come here to TALK. Here at the SDMB, most of us want to sit around the kitchen table and TALK. Or sit out on the porch with Grandpa and TALK. Or go out behind the barn and smoke cigarettes and TALK. Some posters don’t get it; they do nothing but rant, either in the Pit, or more politely, over in MPSIMS. These are the ones who don’t “play along”, the ones who are “less respected”. When a poster who has contributed nothing to the SDMB so far besides personal complaints decides to butt into a serious conversation about creationism, either we simply ignore him, or we shout at him to “shut up!” Some of us will add the word, “asshole!” to it.

Sometimes posters do say the “wrong thing”. Usually it’s a personal insult that was uncalled for. The posters who ARE respected are the ones who realize this and almost immediately offer an apology and an explanation. “I’m sorry, I’m just angry by something you said in this other thread.” Or, “sorry, I shouldn’t post at 2 a.m.”

The posters who are NOT respected are the ones who insult for no reason and then don’t seem to understand that an apology is called for.

As for having other posters “on your side”, this is very nice when you’re a newbie and somebody picks on you or flames you. It’s very reassuring to see a couple of supportive posts right after the insult, picking on the one who was picking on you. It’s also very nice if you’re debating in the minority on a topic.

The SDMB is made up of people, and people can’t help forming alliances and friendships.

Also, you tend to notice which posters agree with you, and which ones post topics that you’ll find interesting to post to, so you tend to look for their names in the subject list.

“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

Speaking of whom, where is UncleBeer, anyway?

Tom~ & Notthemamma, as usual, your replies were very well-spoken. I agree with both of you.

Can I take this opportunity to make a point that I think is at least a contributing factor to what bj0rn is asking about? In his response, Coldfire stated (italics mine):

and

I’ve noticed this sort of statement made a lot and it really bothers me. Who is us? You? You and a bunch of people you’ve been trading emails with? Sometimes I personally agree with you about certain trolls and sometimes I think you’re nitpicking about other posters who you may disagree with or who may just be annoying to you. I’m willing to bet that that could be said by just about everyone here about everyone else here (but I wouldn’t presume to speak for everyone else). I think making statements like “we think you’re annoying” is just perpetuating the idea that some people are dismissed out of hand because of who they are. While that may not be the case, and you may be basing your comments on what the person actually says, it does not help the atmosphere here to develop a we vs. you mentality.
Coldfire, I don’t mean this as a personal attack on you, as I almost always agree with what you say (and because you are not the only one to use “us” and “we” when you’re presenting your own opinions), but I hope this helps people consider some of the words they use.

OK, I guess I’d better clarify that.

In the first quote, us is supposed to mean “everyone that reads this”. All SDMB Posters? Perhaps. It was just another way of very generally describing the people on this board. I did not intend to come across as a spokesman for whatever defined group one can think of.

In the second quote, it is a little more complex. However, I am referring to people that can actually be accused of trolling. Take Michael Masterson, for example. It can be argued that most, if not all posters on these boards were genuinely annoyed by seeing all these stupid threads popping up on a periodical basis (often bumped to the top by the OP, no less). The word us is therefore used in an effort to describe all (or almost all) posters in an exceptional situation where opinions are homogenuous.

I hope that clarifies - and don’t worry, C3: that wasn’t a personal attack by far :wink:

Tied to my bedpost. :wink:
Shaaaaaaaaaaaa. . . . I wish.

Note that the OP quotes the fact that “*****'s opinion doesn’t help.” (emphasis added). This is different than saying a person’s support hurts your argument. The quote is an objective refutation of argument from legitimate authority.

If you are discussing the thermodynamic interpretation of Black Hole dynamics, Stephen Hawking is a legitimate authority: Merely citing that he agrees with your argument is strong evidence that your argument is correct. Hawking does help. However Pat Robertson is not a legitimate authority; his agreement objectively doesn’t help your argument.

Saying that someone’s agreement hurts your argument is an ad hominem fallacy “by proxy” as it were.


Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

Thanks for the clarification, Coldfire.

My take on the OP (bj0rn, correct me if I’m wrong) is that Poster #1 agreed with Poster #2. When #2 said, “Look, I’m not the only one who thinks this way!”, the statement was made that the back-up was irrelevant because the people at SDMB don’t respect #1. The popular opinion was implied.

Going on this alone (and not knowing the context or the identity of #1), it seems that the statements of #1 were dismissed out of hand based on the personality or past behavior of #1, not on the merits of the actual opinion. While it’s human nature to base someone’s credibility on personality & past behavior (see The Boy Who Cried Wolf fable), it’s not always the best way to judge an opinion (see the same fable).

If Michael Masterson had started a thread in GD with an interesting premise, most people would have ignored it because of his past posts. That’s life…he set himself up to be ignored and reviled. It’s illogical, though, to say that just because he made an ass out of himself most of the time, that he never had and never would have something worthwhile to say.

I’m hoping that most posters here are able to overcome their human nature and treat information more logically.

(this entire conjecture based on the minimal information given in the OP)

sorry about how long it has take to reply to your posts. very good posts all of them, so good i do not know where to start.

one thought struck me while i was reading the posts that have been posted so far. “some of you are stuck on the example i gave you!” rather than focus on the hypothesis of the scenario.

one should not have any problems when deciding the validity of a post. bear with me in the following example:
poster #1 makes a statement, poster #2 says nobody agrees with that statement(generalizing should not apply) and poster #3 notes to poster #2 that he/she understands given statement from poster #1. poster #2 then disqualifies poster #3 by saying for example “poster #3 is much less respected than you(poster #1) are. Having him on your side doesn’t help.”

conclusion on given scenario: poster #2 must assume that poster #3 is lying(perhaps like he usually does). the point is, if poster #3 is not lying, poster #2 is to be blamed for making false statements. however if poster #2 is fighting ignorance(like we are all doing, right?) he would not assume lies, for lies promote ignorance. if it so ends up that poster #3 was lying, it will be even a bigger embarassment for him(he probably will not be able to post in that thread without apologizing).

taking the matter outside of the thread is not what should be practiced!

thus the example proves that somewhere else on the message board poster #3 has said something people/person/s didnt like, but those people/person/s(poster #2) brought the matter into another thread, which was not related to the previous thread in any way(excluding the posters naturally).

exacly what should not be done! - good example, thank you.

thank you c3 for pointing out the generalization in the thread.

bj0rn - in general


(You know, I find it helps to copy it to WordPad and then fix all the punctuation errors, etc., so they’re not so distracting. Then I usually light some incense, sacrifice a chicken to the spirit of Kate Turabian, and get really drunk. Then it actually starts to make sense.) - notthemama

Yeah, I know what you mean, but I think it’s just that people are people, whether they’re talking face to face or on a message board.

And this isn’t a strict parliamentary debate, where people take turns standing up and presenting their points. It’s more of a conversational free-for-all, with people excusing themselves to go run an errand and then coming back later in the middle and not paying much attention to what’s been said and saying something stupid, and getting jumped on for it, and other people telling the people who jumped on the idiot not to be so pissy.

So. ::: shrug :::: That’s just the way it is. Whatcha gonna do?

I would also like to point out, Bjorn that if what you want is a more orderly arrangement, with no name-calling, you should check out some of the geek message boards, like Wonkoslice. http://www.wonko.com/

You think what goes on at the SDMB is wild? Check out some of these flame wars, over real important things like Linux and C++. :rolleyes:

At least when WE have that sort of thing, it’s for something reasonably important like creationism.


“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

i know it, you know it. we dont do it…why do everybody else?

dont they know? havent they heard? where have they been?

who are we to say they are wrong? who are we to meddle in their buissiness? why cant they just know and act like we do?

please excuse my question vomiting…on with the post now.

one can only expect people like they are, the problem is of course that you do not know how they are going to act or say.

another problem is, that way back someone figured out that it is possible to lie and gain something from it. but in order to gain something from it, you must keep it a secret.
saying something that might not be true, like what poster #2 said in my previous post, is lying. even if poster #2 belives it to be true he may not assume it, for he is assuming the opinions of other people. miraculously he might be correct, or he has done his homework and spoken to every being whose respect i or he could have possibly earned. just to be sure in his statement.

notthemama: i said nothing about the messageboard(or the people using this messageboard) that could hint i was unhappy with the way it works. its just people, where ever they might be.

anyway…enjoy!

bj0rn - chickens for sale…!


(You know, I find it helps to copy it to WordPad and then fix all the punctuation errors, etc., so they’re not so distracting. Then I usually light some incense, sacrifice a chicken to the spirit of Kate Turabian, and get really drunk. Then it actually starts to make sense.) - notthemama

Bjorn- You are the smartest person alive, except Cecil(who isn’t alive), so expect a lot of people to be on your side, but then you should fix up your website better so they can visit you, I thinkso :slight_smile:


Serial Poster Girl Sounds alomost naughty :wink:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/gregspizza/index.html

yeah…thanks.
i havent looked at my website in a few months myself…its got something to do with my isp…

and being smart hasnt got anything to do with the subject!

bj0rn - chickens for sale…!

Say bj0rn -

I’ve never been to Iceland, although I tried once but the ferry from Scotland got delayed and I had to pass it up.

On thing that always puzzled me is why aren’t there any trees. The place looks like Norway, which is full of them despite the long winters.