he reads to us from something called 'Ulysses'.

[RivkahChaya]

@Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew

Well, I sure don’t feel like a sissy now.

And yet, I do.

[Pixel_Dent]

@Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew

Probably none, since the protagonist is usually identified as Odysseus in English translations of the poem–including the abridged one I myself had as a schoolboy.

Actually English translations are split pretty evenly on whether the Greek or Latin names are used. The Alexander Pope translation, for instance, has always been one of the most popular and uses the Latin Ulysses. Meaningless arguments over which should be used are quite popular among people who enjoy having meaningless arguments about 3000 year old literature.

[kaylasdad99]

@Kimstu

Man, I can’t believe we’ve practically done a doctoral dissertation defense debate here over an Allan Sherman novelty song!

What is there to say? We’re Dopers.

I’m convinced that DChord568 is having a laugh with us. And he’s doing it REALLY GOOD job of it.

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

@Prof.Pepperwinkle

Some of the offending language:

@Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew

Well, I sure don’t feel like a sissy now.

To be fair, I expect people were a little more offended by:

O well I suppose its because they were so
plump and tempting in my short petticoat he couldnt resist they excite myself sometimes its well for
men all the amount of pleasure they get off a womans body were so round and white for them
always I wished I was one myself for a change just to try with that thing they have swelling up on
you so hard and at the same time so soft when you touch it my uncle John has a thing long I heard
those cornerboys saying passing the comer of Marrowbone lane my aunt Mary has a thing hairy
because it was dark and they knew a girl was passing it didnt make me blush why should it either its
only nature and he puts his thing long into my aunt Marys hairy etcetera

I cant help it if Im young still can I its a wonder Im not an old shrivelled hag before
my time living with him so cold never embracing me except sometimes when hes asleep the wrong
end of me not knowing I suppose who he has any man thatd kiss a womans bottom Id throw my hat
at him after that hed kiss anything unnatural where we havent I atom of any kind of expression in us
all of us the same 2 lumps of lard before ever Id do that to a man pfooh the dirty brutes the mere
thought is enough

Id love a
big juicy pear now to melt in your mouth like when I used to be in the
longing way then Ill throw him up his eggs and tea in the moustachecup
she gave him to make his mouth bigger I suppose hed like my nice cream
too I know what Ill do Ill go about rather gay not too much singing a
bit now and then mi fa pieta Masetto then Ill start dressing myself to
go out presto non son piu forte Ill put on my best shift and drawers let
him have a good eyeful out of that to make his micky stand for him Ill
let him know if thats what he wanted that his wife is I s l o fucked yes
and damn well fucked too up to my neck nearly not by him 5 or 6 times
handrunning theres the mark of his spunk on the clean sheet I wouldnt
bother to even iron it out that ought to satisfy him if you dont believe
me feel my belly unless I made him stand there and put him into me Ive a
mind to tell him every scrap and make him do it out in front of me serve
him right its all his own fault if I am an adulteress as the thing in
the gallery said O much about it if thats all the harm ever we did in
this vale of tears God knows its not much doesnt everybody only they
hide it I suppose thats what a woman is supposed to be there for or
He wouldnt have made us the way He did so attractive to men then if he
wants to kiss my bottom Ill drag open my drawers and bulge it right out
in his face as large as life he can stick his tongue 7 miles up my hole
as hes there my brown part then Ill tell him I want LI or perhaps 30/-
Ill tell him I want to buy underclothes then if he gives me that well he
wont be too bad I dont want to soak it all out of him like other women
do I could often have written out a fine cheque for myself and write his
name on it for a couple of pounds a few times he forgot to lock it up
besides he wont spend it Ill let him do it off on me behind provided he
doesnt smear all my good drawers O I suppose that cant be helped Ill do
the indifferent l or 2 questions Ill know by the answers when hes like
that he cant keep a thing back I know every turn in him Ill tighten my
bottom well and let out a few smutty words smellrump or lick my shit or
the first mad thing comes into my head then Ill suggest about yes O wait
now sonny my turn is coming Ill be quite gay and friendly over it O
but I was forgetting this bloody pest of a thing pfooh you wouldnt know
which to laugh or cry were such a mixture of plum and apple no Ill have
to wear the old things so much the better itll be more pointed hell
never know whether he did it or not there thats good enough for you
any old thing at all then Ill wipe him off me just like a business his
omission then Ill go out Ill have him eying up at the ceiling where is
she gone now make him want me thats the only way

[DChord568]

Here’s what I originally wrote:

@DChord568

None of these contortions is in any way necessary if the Ulysses in question is Homer’s.

@Jimmy_Chitwood

It doesn’t matter whether Odysseus or Ulysses is more recognizable. This is because neither Ulysses nor Odysseus is the name of anything by Homer. And because Ulysses is recognizable as the name of a different work. By James Joyce.

There is no work by Homer called Ulysses. When you are discussing works “called Ulysses,” right off the bat you can exclude the one by Homer, on account of it not existing. Ulysses? By James Joyce or by Homer? Oh, that’s right, the one by Homer doesn’t exist; it must be the one that does exist.

Uh…

If I had intended to speak of a work of literature when I wrote the above, I would have italicized Ulysses, as I’ve been doing consistently throughout when referring to Joyce’s book.

My intent in my quote above was to speak of the character of Ulysses, which as a couple of people have pointed out (and everyone else has conveniently ignored) is the name that many translations of Homer’s work use.

The question I posed in the post you quoted remains an entirely valid one.

And my point in the original post above was…if the coach is reading from Homer’s work rather than Joyce’s, then:

• He is more likely to find a passage or passages that will achieve his goal of toughening up his charges by appealing to their bold and adventurous sides. (More on this from the Joyce side of the equation in a subsequent post.)

• The necessity of the child having knowledge of James Joyce’s Ulysses — a possibility I continue to find to be remote — is removed. He doesn’t have to be scandalizing his parents with this statement — it’s now just another in a long list of things about his first day at camp that he finds annoying, frightening or (in this case) incomprehensible, and thus boring.

• We don’t have a character in Sherman’s song engaged in an activity that would result in the loss of his job and possible criminal charges were it to be found out…as it most surely would be in fairly short order.

[DChord568]

And speaking of ignoring…

I have no idea what the average age of posters is here, but among several things many of you are ignoring is the age of the child and children in question.

As it’s clear that he is making his first-ever visit to summer camp, I have chosen a likely age range of 8 to no more than 10 for young Alan. Certainly the way he expresses himself in the song pegs him as a child of this age rather than an older one.

I know we live in a different era now, but I feel confident in saying that the average 8- to 10-year old in 1963:

• did not have sex on his mind

• did not have much of grasp (no pun intended) on what sex even is

• was still firmly in the “girls are yucky” stage

• had no concept of what homosexuality is, and had likely never been exposed to an example of what it is
I realize that everyone’s individual experiences are different, but if anyone can present evidence that the above statements are not representative of the average 8- to 10-year-old in 1963, he or she is welcome to present it.

So, we have a coach that either wants to ensure his 8- to 10-year-old campers don’t “become” gay…or we have him concerned for their overall manliness in the more conventional sense of them not being timid, physically week, etc.

Thank you to those who have posted what I assume are representative passages from Joyce’s Ulysses.

I again pose a question in search of a serious answer: how does the coach figure Joyce will aid his cause?

And further:

• Why will Joyce do an immeasurably better job of helping him attain his goal than Homer?

• And what will the 8- to 10-year-olds who hear these passages from Joyce make of them?

[DChord568]

@Kamino_Neko

As a parent, which of these scenarios do you think you would group with your child getting food poisoning, disappearing in the woods, and potentially getting eaten by a bear or alligator?

‘My child is being given an education in literature!’

Or

‘My child is being read porn!’

(No, Ulysses isn’t porn. But it was banned for obscenity, which translates into getting a reputation for being pornographic.)

If you’re not insane, you now know what the joke Sherman intended was.

I’m not insane at all.

As I said much earlier in the thread, Alan lists a litany of complaints he has about his first day in camp. A couple of them (poison ivy, counselors hate the waiters) are no doubt true, but negligible. Others (the lake with alligators, bears in the woods, malaria) are either the result of older campers teasing him with fanciful, scary tales…or products of Alan’s imagination.

NONE of these scenarios, including the coach’s reading, necessitate Alan lying to his parents. (Again, perhaps younger readers don’t think it’s a big deal, but I know what my fate would have been if I had been caught lying to my parents about anything — much less something with the potential to get an adult fired from his job and facing criminal charges.)

The notion that some have floated that Alan:

• knows anything at all (at age 10 or younger) about James Joyce’s Ulysses in the first place

• if by some miracle he does, would make up a story that the coach was reading to him and his campmates from it in an effort to “horrify” his parents

…is frankly, absurd.

If the coach is attempting to reach his charges with tales of brave Ulysses (courtesy of Homer), then it simply becomes yet another of the annoyances Alan has endured during his first day at camp that he’s now whining to his parents about.

Again, those who were 8 to 10 years old in 1963 are welcome to tell us how much they would enjoy this activity on their first day of camp.

This passage doesn’t in any way have to involve anything “scandalous” to work in the context of the song.

[DChord568]

Once again, I will state…

I get that “Hello Muddah, Hello Faddah” is a comedy record. But unless you’re going for (in the words of a thread-starter elsewhere on this board) “pure random silliness,” then the best comedy tends to have some sort of internal logic to it.

NONE of the other episodes mentioned in the course of this record is in any way absurd when put in context. (See my previous post for how I characterized them.)

Then suddenly, right in the middle of all this routine summer camp stuff, comes a scene where a coach reads to 8- to 10-year olds from a book that is filled with grossly non-age-appropriate sexual content — an activity that would get him fired and also brought up on charges of contributing to the delinquency of a minor or something similar.

Anyone care to join me in a chorus of “One of these things is not like the other”?

[Manduck]

I think you write faster than I read.

[ozaline]

@Pixel_Dent

Actually English translations are split pretty evenly on whether the Greek or Latin names are used. The Alexander Pope translation, for instance, has always been one of the most popular and uses the Latin Ulysses. Meaningless arguments over which should be used are quite popular among people who enjoy having meaningless arguments about 3000 year old literature.

Thank you, Pope’s is the one I have that I referenced earlier… was having trouble remembering the name. :smack:

I think there has been more drift in the popular consciousness, in the past three or four decades away from the Roman names when discussing Greek myth excepting for Heracles.

But I remember a scifi anime version in the 80s called* Ulysses 31* (well I don’t personally remember cause I was born in the mid 80s).

By the time I got to college though none of my teachers would dare call Oedipus Tyrannus by Rex
Anyway sorry for the side tangent…

boring poem is still not as funny as lurid book.

[Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew]

@DChord568

I get that “Hello Muddah, Hello Faddah” is a comedy record.

No, you don’t. You patently do not, because you keep rejecting the obvious and funny interpretation in favor of one that you think is more realistic, but which isn’t funny at all. Comedy thrives on incongruity, and it’s the incongruity of the coach reading an inappropriate book to the campers that makes the line funny. Where’s the humor in the kid being bored by Homer? (And why would he be bored by Homer, when it’s full of awesome stuff like poking out the giant’s eye with a burning log, or the witch turning all the sailors into pigs?)

You also seem unclear on the concept that this is not an actual letter home written by a child, but the work of a clever and witty songwriter addressing an adult audience. If Allan Sherman wanted us to understand that the coach is reading from the Odyssey, he wouldn’t have referred to “something called Ulysses.” He’s not stupid enough to make the line that misleading.

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

nm

[Kamino_Neko]

@Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew

You also seem unclear on the concept that this is not an actual letter home written by a child, but the work of a clever and witty songwriter addressing an adult audience.

In-universe, it’s also not a letter written detailing actual grievances - only the weather, and maybe Joe Spivy’s poison ivy, are something that’s actually true, evidenced by the fact that as soon as the weather clears up, he’s happy to stay - and swim in the supposedly alligator-infested lake. It’s all stuff he’s made up, because he knows his parents won’t take him home just because the weather isn’t good - nor would they because the coach decided that if the weather’s bad, he’d read them not-inappropriate* literature while they were stuck inside. (Though if the coach DID read to them from the Odyssey or the Tennyson poem and he got bored, I can certainly see Little Alan implying that it was Joyce’s Ulysses because he knows his parents would consider that scandalous.)

• If dry as unbuttered toast in the case of the poem and certain translations of the Odyssey.

[DrDeth]

@Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew

If Allan Sherman wanted us to understand that the coach is reading from the Odyssey, he wouldn’t have referred to “something called Ulysses.” He’s not stupid enough to make the line that misleading.

Ulysses rimes, the Odyssey doesnt. Poetic licence.

[Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew]

@DrDeth

Ulysses rimes, the Odyssey doesnt. Poetic licence.

Again, it’s unlikely that Sherman was looking for a rhyme for “sissies”; that word was chosen *because *it sets up the joke about the taboo book. Even if it were the other way around, he could have said, for example, “some book about Ulysses” rather than “from something called Ulysses” and made his meaning clear.

[Kent_Clark]

But Alan Sherman was NOT an 8-year old boy when he recorded the song. He was a grown man doing a comedy bit designed to make adults laugh. Adults who, because they were the kind of hip intellectuals who listened to comedy folk singers, would be familiar with James Joyce’s Ulysses being a dirty book.

That’s all the logic we need to employ here.

[DChord568]

@Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew

No, you don’t.

Convenient that you quote one sentence of my post, and ignore everything else that’s a a part of it — just as you’ve ignored so many of the other points I’ve brought up that you have no answer for.

Now that I understand how it works around here, I’m happy to do the same with your post.

[Sherrerd]

@DChord568

I again pose a question in search of a serious answer: how does the coach figure Joyce will aid his cause?

Here, again, you’re assuming that the song is about a kid accurately reporting actual events.

But that’s not what the song is about. The kid is plainly making stuff up: alligators in a New York State lake? Come on.

Since the kid is making stuff up, the question of the coach’s motivation for an action is irrelevant, since it’s unlikely that the coach actually did perform that action.

[TriPolar]

DChord, you’re putting up a great fight, but you’re losing every round. It’s James Joyce’ Ulysses. It wouldn’t make sense as anything else. You can’t get humor by deconstructing it. The line would have been funny at the time all by itself.

Still, your tireless and hopeless effort has extended this thread, which is good because it’s a tribute to Allen Sherman and the enduring legacy of this one song. But don’t let it be the song sung by sirens to lure you to your death on the rocks.

[DChord568]

In summary…

I seem to be the lone person here who fails to find the notion of an adult reading an extremely age-inappropriate book filled with sexual references to a group of 8- to 10-year-olds to be screamingly funny.

Here’s a challenge: find me another example taken from anywhere in mass-market, popular culture circa 1963 where an equivalent device is used for humorous purposes. I’ll wait.

Until such an example is produced, I’ll continue to believe that the reference was to Homer’s character, and that the passage works perfectly well for the purposes of the song with that interpretation.