Healthcare - The More I Learn the More Disgusted I Become

There are a lot of responses to SA’s cavils whose thrust is that of the Canadian experts who have provided evidence that problems exist in the Canadian system(s), none have endorsed abandoning the system(s).

Thing is, unless I have missed a vital point in his posts,* SA is not making the argument that the US shouldn’t go to single-payer because Canada is on the verge of scrapping it. He’s making the argument that the US shouldn’t go to single-payer because problems exist in the Canadian system.

Or rather (considering that single-payer is not being seriously proposed by anyone), he’s making the argument that this is a reason for not taking any action that might, in his opinion, put the US on a slippery slope to single-payer. Of course, his argument is just as asinine and wrong either way, but we get more traction demolishing his actual arguments than the chimerical ones.

*I might have actually missed it, as I often find his posts to be of the TL;DR variety.

There will be. The current system is unsustainable. Premiums are rising at an ever faster rate. Health care in America consumed 16% of GDP in 2007; the Congressional Budget Office has projected that it will rise to 25% by 2025. Employers are shifting more and more of the burden to employees. The wheels are going to fall off the cart. There is no other outcome if we do nothing.

The the only choice we have is whether we fix it now, or wait until it collapses entirely. It is incredible to think that there is a measurable number of people who are determined to pursue the latter course.

(sarcasm on)

And in the US, the complex procedure of waiting for a person willing to be a donor with a heart matching the 20 or more factors (starting with blood group and Rhesus, working down), dying in such a way that the heart can still be used (motorbike accident is preferred), is **much faster **because of the free market system! Yeah, I believe that!
Unless the kind compassionate people running the profit-oriented US health insurance companies, unlike the cold-hearted, uncaring bureaucrats who would run the govt. Death panels, bought the necessary parts in the open market - from the condemmed chinese prisoners (as the rumor says that China sells their organs). Yes, I see the light now why free market is so wonderful!

(sarcasm off)

Along with having our universal health care paid for by Americans, we also get our transplant organs from the Americans, duty free due to the free trade agreement.

See, that’s where the death panels come in. When we need a body part, the death panel kills a doner.

It all began back with that socialist Trudeau, who set up the various provincial Oil for Organs Programs (OOPS). That’s why Albertans, being god fearing moral types, were so opposed to the National Energy Program.

Would me being a Type-1 diabetic (since 1993) and having live din both the UK and Sweden count? Or my emergency surgery in the UK after falling through a roof managed to fuck up my insides (and arse, fact fans) good and proper?

Or how about my Father that had a multiple heart bypass in the UK?

Or how about my Mother with Haemochromatosis (which, as it is passed genetically, I could end up having as well and am tested regularly for) and required regular hospital visits for blood letting.

Because I can guarantee you that neither I nor my Father nor my Mother would even consider the US system.

Don’t the health insurance companies realize that they’re going to run out of people to insure? Where’s the profit in that?

Regarding SA, I understand his basic argument to be against an increase in government programs. He’s concerned that a health care program would just get larger and larger. I don’t share his concern, but that’s what I think he’s on about.

They only care about the current quarter. Showing any foresight for what might happen, even next year, reduces the bonus they are wet dreaming today.

My employer-provided health care has gotten progressively worse every single year I’ve worked for them. Not because of their disinclination to provide excellent benefits, but because insurance rates as a whole have been skyrocketing every single year. Even with insurance, I pay over $1200 out of pocket every year just for my allergy shots. Shots I take so I won’t get seriously ill every winter. And that doesn’t even touch any other health expenses I incur over the course of a year.

If gas prices went up at an average of 27% every year, you can bet people would be screaming at the government to stop it. Even the people without cars would protest, because that price increase would affect prices of just about everything else. As does health care, though many people seem to be willfully ignoring it.

Another thing to keep in mind is that employer-provided health care is a benefit. It is by no means required for employers to provide it. It has become customary, but in this economic climate, where finding a job is becoming more and more difficult, I fully expect to see companies drop health care benefits as too expensive to maintain. Yes, you can get and retain more and better people with a good benefit plan, but if the benefit plan is ruining your bottom line, something’s gotta give.

I support the public option. I would love the opportunity to save some money by choosing it over the increasingly burdensome contribution I pay toward my current plan. As for anyone preferring to pay for private insurance, more power to them. I tend to be leery of insurance companies at the best of times, as they are betting that I will die before they end up losing money on me.

Heck, I support medical care for illegal and legal aliens, too. Flu, H1N1, tuberculosis, and other communicable diseases don’t discriminate. I’d prefer a bit of my taxes to go to insuring that these types of epidemic illnesses are minimized by easy access to immunization and medical care.

Maybe I’m a liberal fascist Nazi commie, but I’m also an American citizen, and I would prefer that everyone get the same access to healthcare. Even people I don’t like.

But then how would you be able to feel superior to others, like curlcoat does?

Through my excellent spelling. So there.

waits anxiously for Gaudere’s Law to kick in

When a person defaults on a medical bill, that loss of income has to be covered somehow, so the health care providor raises the rates overall, so that the people who do pay end up subsidizing those who failed to pay. That results in insurance rates rising and coverage being cut. The more rates rise and the more coveracge is cut, the more uninsured people there are. The more uninsured people there are, the more medical bills go unpaid. The more medical bills go unpaid, the more the loss of income is covered by increased health care costs which in causes increased health insurance rates and more coverage cuts. It’s a nasty spiral.

The solution is to broaden the base of people paying health insurance by requiring everyone to carry health insurance. Whether that is best done through public insurance, private insuance, or a combination of the two, is up for debate, but the fundamental problem remains that there is not a broad enough base of insured people to support a system that treats insured people, non-insured people, and under-insured people.

Here in Kanukistan, we primarily have public insurance – everyone is covered and pretty much everyone pays into it. It works very well. For areas that are not covered (e.g. drugs, dental and a few other things) we have private insurance that works fairly well, but is starting to fail the same way the American medical insurance is failing. (For example, my previous employer has been unable to find satisfactory dental insurance despite not particularly caring about the rates they would have to pay. Problems have included a plan covering fillings, but not the glue that holds the filling to the tooth, and a plan covering endodontics but not if done by an endodontist.) For drugs, we have private insurance, however the key to it all is the public aspect, by which the government negotiates with big pharma to ensure low prices for patent medicines.

As far as improvement on the Canadian health care system goes, of course we want to improve it, but it is a matter of making something that is excellent even better, rather than scrambling to cobble together something from ruins, as is the case in the USA.

What it comes down to is that our government works for the people, and when it comes to paying for health care, the most cost effective way of providing it is for all the people to pay insurance, rather than only some of the people to pay insuance. As it stands in the USA, the health insurance companies are stampeding in the wrong direction by narrowing the base of insured people, but the very nature of their industry forces them to do this. It’s time for the American federal and state governments to step in and start working for the American people.

Through Baucus our politicians have failed to do the right thing. It should please S.A. no end. They will force people who are not covered to buy insurance. The insurance companies are happy as clams. They always win. They have 50 million more customers to cheat. Of course the Baucus bill has a way to regulate them. The National Assoc. of Insurance Commisioners will decide the on the issuing and marketing for the new victims .We need a revolution.

I wonder if the co-op option will pan out, and if enough people will be covered to sufficiently broaden the insured base? I doubt it on both counts. I wonder if it will do anything to reduce the administrative load of processing claims? I don’t see why it would.

I expect that there will be somewhat of an improvement, but a lot of people – millions of Americans – will still be fucked.

I see no improvement. i see an insurance company giveaway.
There are rumblings that congress may not agree to the PHARM giveaway that Obama started off with. He gave a break to the PHARM people so they would not pour millions into defeating the bill. Now the deal may not be part of the bill. That would be nice.

Here’s another factoid I just learned - The insurance market is so free, it has an exemption from the Sherman Anti-Trust Act.

We don’t because someone might get poked or burned and the ER cost would be outrageous. :smiley:

Another update, here. A big healthcare vote was scheduled today in the Senate Finance Committee. At issue were many amendments to the “Baucus Bill.”

Here’s the bottom line.** The public option amendment was rejected **by a 15-8 vote. This amendment was proposed by Rockefeller (D-WV), who I think has been commendable in recent weeks for his staunch support of a strong public option. All Republicans in the Senate Finance Committee voted against it. Additionally, Democrats Max Baucus, D-Mont., Bill Nelson, D-Fla., Kent Conrad, D-N.D., Blanche Lincoln, D-Ark., and Thomas Carper, D-Del. voted against the bill as well. I was extremely disappointed when I found out the result of the vote. All of these senators who voted against it are despicable.

Of course they are. Anyone who has a different view or who has different concerns than people like you is automatically despicable. There’s your way, and there’s the backward/stupid/greedy/evil way. This attitude is virtually a defining characteristic of people like you.

Well, you see, Starv, once you know right from wrong, you are pretty much obligated to do something about it, or at least speak up. Them’s the Rules.