Hearts & Minds update: Shooting wounded prisoners in a mosque.

[duffer]

@TommyTutone

1. There are anecdotes that in WWII prisoners were sometimes shot dead because the US troops needed to keep moving and had no other way of handling them.

I wonder what our opinion of the WWII vets would be if they were under 24/7 surveillance of a media camera? War is hell, and I hope my loved ones are never put in that situation again. (I have a number of family members and friends that have seen combat). But it happens. It’s a fact I can’t change, and there will be other wars in the future. I thank God I probably won’t see it, and thank Him as well that there are those whom are willing to do it for me and mine.

Think of the civilians killed in Dresden, Berlin, Hiroshima, Nagasaki. Tragedy? Yup. Big reason the Allies won the war? Yup. War ain’t pretty, and has never been a reason to celebrate. But sometimes (hell most of the time) a lot of innocents die during war. Tragic, yes. But worthy of saying they’re murderers? I can’t remember the German’s attempting to invade the US save the submarine off the Eastern seaboard. (I think Cecil covered this in an answer)

Hitler took the Wehrmacht into Poland, Czech Rep, Austria, Slovakia, France, Russia, Norway, and made a very close go of it in England. Nothing was forced on the US (other than the Achille Laural).

So what was our justification in going to war with Germany?

(Keep in mind, it took us well over 4 years to win that little war. And it was a country that was basically, fundamentally on the same page as the US.) I won’t even get into the French angle, as I keep getting reminded that Paris isn’t indicative of the French as a whole.

[GorillaMan]

@Mirasawa

What’s this going to do, geniuses? Make troops be more politically correct when dealing with these psychos

Nope. Just asking them to obey very basic laws.

We don’t need soldiers getting killed to appease the Bolsheviks here in America.

:rolleyes: Playing the Commie card is a sure sign that you can’t find any other argument.

[ElvisL1ves]

@Spavined Gelding

This is magnitudes worse than the abuse of prisoners. It is the single incident that may shoot US attempts to forestall civil war and the emergence of an anti-US regime in Iraq right in the head.

Some of us thought the Abu Ghraib torture photos already was that crystallizing event. If only there were just a single incident.
[/QUOTE]

[Who_me_1]

@duffer

Let’s also not forget that the military exists to kill people and break stuff. It’s not a jobs program, nor a way to have your college education paid for. Those are benefits you get for putting your life on the line.

So… what you’re saying is that joining the military gives you the right to kill people should you want to and get into a combat situation. It doesn’t matter who you kill, just as long as you can confidently describe the person as one of them.

Now, not to disagree with you or anything, but most of the people that I’ve known that joined the military joined to get job training or college money… are you saying that they were wrong?

@duffer

This guy is welcome in my home anyday.

I think I’ll wait on the evidence. Proudly trumpeting his innocence is as stupid as decrying his guilt. He could be a cold blooded killer, he could be an innocent lamb. I’d guess him to be a frightened young man in a tough situation where he may or may not have made a serious error in judgement. I’ll allow the military and persons more knowledgable than I make that judgement.

The system broke down here. After the mosque was first taken and the front line troops advanced, second line troops should have (and according to the news reports, were supposed to have) evacuated the prisoners from the mosque. This didn’t happen and the mosque was reported to have been reoccupied, although it wasn’t. Part of the blame here lies with the “Fog of War” that’s been with us as long as there have been armies.

[Who_me_1]

@Mirasawa

Fuckers. You lose the election, then you lose the battle in Falujah with low casualties on the American side. “Oh, but we still have the MORAL superiority! See, see, homophobia is why people voted Republican! This tape shows that American soldiers are bloodthirsty killers!”

Interesting… I’m not John Kerry, so I didn’t lose any elections. I think the country lost the election, but that’s why this country has lasted so well for so long, differing opinions. I also wasn’t in Iraq recently, so I doubt you could say I lost any battles there.

Because you can’t see anything as not being about you versus them, you’re hurting your own cause in the long run. You make enemies of persons that could be friends and allies. I’m not talking about terrorists here. Republicans and Democrats… liberals and conservatives… We are on the same side… trying to keep the U.S. great. Their ideas and ideals differ, but their goals are the same. I see people here demonizing people with the same goals. If America falls, it will be because of internal tension, not outside intervention.

Hopefully, moderates from both sides of the aisle, from all philosophies, will see this and start to mend the split.

[usar_jag]

@Diogenes the Cynic

THE GC is in place to protect OUR troops. Don’t forget that.

Technically, the GC protects all combatants of nation states that are parties to the GC. If we fight an enemy that is not a party to the GC, we cannot expect U.S. prisoners to be treated to the standards provided by the GC.

However, it should be noted that all of our Armed Forces have pleged to provide treatment in accordance with the GC to all lawful combatants. (And hopefully non-lawful combatants, as well.)

I’m hoping this Marine faces a GCM sooner rather than later, so the facts can come out.

[wring]

where I see the problem is the day before. YOu’ve got street fighting, door to door nastiness. snipers. etc. Marines enter the mosque, shoot up the place. leave wounded insurgents there, unguarded, unattended.

Many things could have transpired from that point to the next. The guy could have died. (no, I’m not claiming that he did, I’m just spelling out the possabilities). he could have recovered and left to go fight elsewhere (no, he didn’t but the marines that left him did not know he wouldn’t). he could have been boobietrapped by his side afterwards (no, he wasn’t, but the marines who left him there did not know that wouldn’t happen).

So I have to disagree that the person was a “prisoner”. The next wave of soldiers could have taken him prisoner, should have. But, what he saw was a live man in an area where there’d been snipers. it was difficult to tell from the angle of the camera if both hands were visible to the soldier (even if they were, could the soldier have been certain there wasn’t any weapon hidden close by, close enough to grab?)

war is an extremely ugly business. that’s why I maintained that it should have been an last resort. I regret so very totally that the administration, filled with people who’d managed to avoid learning that lesson themselves at close quarters, decided instead to put our young men and women in this position.

Frankly I don’t see the situation as much different than any of a number of shoot outs w/the cops scenes we’ve seen played out in the media and movies. I always hope that they don’t shoot to kill, but that’s not the way of it.

and, most importantly, it was exactly the same fucking thing as the Administration’s rationale for the invasion of Iraq in the first place (remember ‘pre-emptive strike’? apparently it’s only ‘ok’ on a national basis, but not on an individual basis).

It is, of course, an extremely effective recruitment tool for AlQ et al. though. once again, kudos to the administration for that. and like the prison scandal, the low ranking soldier put in an impossible position, with the precedence of the administration guiding him, will be left out to dry.

[duffer]

Keep in mind, this Marine was shot in the face the day before. I certainly wouldn’t expect him to be in the same mind-set you are right now. In addition, he certainly heard of the dead body - booby trap that took out another Marine the day before, not to mention the knowledge of a Marine brother killed earlier that day in an attack.

Is he absolved of any wrongdoing? No. If he went into the mosque (a stragegic defense position for the terrorists) looking to kill anyone and anything that wasn’t wearing the US flag, he should be strung up. What it looks like, though, is he was already on edge (can you blame him?) and decided the risk wasn’t worth it to him and his fellow soldiers.

Now, another cold hard fact. The man shot was mortally wounded and had almost no chance of survival. He was using the mosque as a haven. The terrorist (sorry, insurgent) tied his flag to a group that has proven that they will kill themselves in order to damage US troops, or any other enemies, even if they are heatlhy, hale and hearty.

The idea that he was an unarmed prisoner is just silly. Much less non-booby-trapped. If he were a prisoner, it wouldn’t be a surprise that he was still alive. And if they knew he was unarmed, they would have known he was alive and would have had him in custody. A POW isn’t a POW until he’s in custody. Otherwise, he’s at best a wild card. This was a man that tried to kill US soldiers, did everything he could to kill US soldiers (and Iraqi soldiers FWIW) and I have no sympathy for him.

I’ll take a terrorist death over another Marine death any day. Bar none. And I challenge anyone to make a case that this piece of shit is in any way better than a serviceman of the USMC.

[World_Eater]

@duffer

I’ll take a terrorist death over another Marine death any day. Bar none. And I challenge anyone to make a case that this piece of shit is in any way better than a serviceman of the USMC.

I’m not going to blindly support the USMC. I’m proud of them and want as many home in one piece as possible. On the other hand if one of them fucks up, I want them held accountable.

As far as every Iraqi being an evil terrorist, I think that mindset is counter productive. Take Abu Ghraib (however it’s spelled), a lot of people said “yeah fuck those terrorists, fuck them all, they deserve torture”. Except that like 80% of the people being held there turned out to be ordinary schmoes. Is a serviceman better then some regular Iraqi schmoe? If so, why?

Use your fucking brains, this is about as far from black and white as you get.

[Larry_Mudd]

Originally Posted by duffer
Keep in mind, this Marine was shot in the face the day before.

I’ve had that in mind from the beginning. Like I said, What the blue fuck was he doing on duty?

Whoever sent him in there put him and his buddies (and anyone else within range of him) in jeopardy, and they should be facing reprimand here.

Whether he was fucked up from pain-killers, or pain, or just the sort of stress that comes with being shot in the fucking face, he couldn’t be expected to be operating at anything like capacity.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@usar_jag

Technically, the GC protects all combatants of nation states that are parties to the GC. If we fight an enemy that is not a party to the GC, we cannot expect U.S. prisoners to be treated to the standards provided by the GC.

However, it should be noted that all of our Armed Forces have pleged to provide treatment in accordance with the GC to all lawful combatants. (And hopefully non-lawful combatants, as well.)

I’m hoping this Marine faces a GCM sooner rather than later, so the facts can come out.

The Geneva Convention is binding on signatories whether the enemy combatants are signatories or not.

[duffer]

@Diogenes the Cynic

The Geneva Convention is binding on signatories whether the enemy combatants are signatories or not.

I’ve seen this before, and have always wondered. Is the US military held to a treaty that the enemy isn’t part of?

[World_Eater]

@World Eater

I’m not going to blindly support the USMC. I’m proud of them and want as many home in one piece as possible. On the other hand if one of them fucks up, I want them held accountable.

As far as every Iraqi being an evil terrorist, I think that mindset is counter productive. Take Abu Ghraib (however it’s spelled), a lot of people said “yeah fuck those terrorists, fuck them all, they deserve torture”. Except that like 80% of the people being held there turned out to be ordinary schmoes. Is a serviceman better then some regular Iraqi schmoe? If so, why?

Use your fucking brains, this is about as far from black and white as you get.

I’d also like to add before I’m called a commie or something equally inane that I say this because all life should be respected. I think it’s stupid to say X is always better then Y.

At the ned of the day I’m concerned about the tropps doing this because they’re only making things worse for themselves. We all need to realize that they’re going through unimaginable amounts of stress (don’t both sides btw?) and we need to hold the people that put them there responsible.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@duffer

I’ve seen this before, and have always wondered. Is the US military held to a treaty that the enemy isn’t part of?

In some cases, yes. It might not seem fair but that is what we agreed to.

[elucidator]

@duffer

…So what was our justification in going to war with Germany?..

Germany declared war on the US. History. Interesting subject. Check into it.

[Merijeek]

@Reeder

The man was a fucking prisoner. You got that?

A god damned prisoner.

He had no weapons. He had no way at all of fighting back.

How can anyone defend what happened?

Now he’s dead.

What if an Iraqi had done it to an American?

Post a thread about the mad-dog godless, souless animals who should all be exterminated, of course.

I could point to the multiple threads about such subjects (beginning with the four contractors, and most recently on the mutilated woman found in the last couple days), but we’ve all seen and read them.

I’m sure all the Brutus types were just full of righteous indignation when the marine did it as they were when Americans were murdered. Of course, if they’re like one-line-Brutus (although to be fair, he has actually broken into two lines, lately - double the wordage, same content), they were probably too busy sucking Pearly White Truth from Dubya’s Shaft of Democracy and Freedom.

Go back to France, freedom hater!

-Joe

[JeffyDMan]

@Diogenes the Cynic

THE GC is in place to protect OUR troops. Don’t forget that.

Are you really naive enough to believe that the Iraqi insurgents give a shit about the Geneva Convention? No doubt in my mind that any American trooper captured allive will be either summarily executed with a shot to the head or filmed being decapitated. They didn’t sign onto the Geneva Convention and they sure as hell won’t adhere to it’s principles. Whole lot of good that does for our troops overseas if they get captured by insurgents.

We’ll see them on CNN getting decapitated.

Fuck the fundies. Kill 'em all.

[cj_finn]

@duffer

This guy is welcome in my home anyday.

Just don’t fall asleep around him. He might think you are faking being dead.

[Mirasawa]

@Merijeek

Post a thread about the mad-dog godless, souless animals who should all be exterminated, of course.

I could point to the multiple threads about such subjects (beginning with the four contractors, and most recently on the mutilated woman found in the last couple days), but we’ve all seen and read them.

I’m sure all the Brutus types were just full of righteous indignation when the marine did it as they were when Americans were murdered. Of course, if they’re like one-line-Brutus (although to be fair, he has actually broken into two lines, lately - double the wordage, same content), they were probably too busy sucking Pearly White Truth from Dubya’s Shaft of Democracy and Freedom.

Go back to France, freedom hater!

-Joe

There you people go again with your moral equivalence. These terrorists tore up their human cards when they tortured people to death, holed themselves up in mosques, booby trapped their bodies, etc. This marine who put his life on the line for service to his country will be given a courtmartial, and the left will point towards his hair trigger as what’s wrong with America.

Well, maybe this guy will get a purple heart out of it, and run for President on the Democrat ticket.

_
_

[World_Eater]

@JeffyDMan

Are you really naive enough to believe that the Iraqi insurgents give a shit about the Geneva Convention? No doubt in my mind that any American trooper captured allive will be either summarily executed with a shot to the head or filmed being decapitated. They didn’t sign onto the Geneva Convention and they sure as hell won’t adhere to it’s principles. Whole lot of good that does for our troops overseas if they get captured by insurgents.

We’ll see them on CNN getting decapitated.

Fuck the fundies. Kill 'em all.

Let’s put it this way.

On every conceivable level I can think of the US is better off follwing the GC, regardless of what the enemy does. It gives us the moral highground we desperately need, it looks better diplomatically, and it gives less recruitment materials for terrorists. Why would wouldn’t we want to follow it?