Hearts & Minds update: Shooting wounded prisoners in a mosque.

[duffer]

@World Eater

As far as every Iraqi being an evil terrorist, I think that mindset is counter productive. Take Abu Ghraib (however it’s spelled), a lot of people said “yeah fuck those terrorists, fuck them all, they deserve torture”. Except that like 80% of the people being held there turned out to be ordinary schmoes. Is a serviceman better then some regular Iraqi schmoe? If so, why?

Of course not every Iraqi is a terrorist. Those in Abu Grahib that were innocents and subjected to such treatment have a major fucking beef. However, I won’t give a pass to all those held there. Torture (subjective considering what some of them have done) will never sit well with Americans, no matter what those outside the US think of us. Yes, that includes us “red-staters”.

Lynndie England (sp?, no matter as it’s a foghornable spelling) should rot, as well as her cohorts. There was no excuse to do that to people already in custody. As long as those people were in custody, there wasn’t anything else needed to be done. The only scenario I could see would be to try to get info on what their terrorist buddies were planning to do to our troops. Valid. Not nice. But it’s war. Keep in mind, these are people that strap bombs to their children to blow themselves up in the vicinity of enemies.

I wonder what the reaction would be if a 9 year old girl walked onto a NYC metro train and blew herself up outside of Grand Central.

Can’t happen? Don’t think they aren’t coming up with a plan.

Again, war is hell. There are going to be civilian casualties. Nobody in the US wants this to happen, but it will. It’s a fact, and will happen. To say anyone on these boards is cheering for it is beyond the pale.

I agree with those that want to bring the military back home, but not before the job is done. We’re committed, and we have to finish this. War is war. It’s never been pretty or wrapped up in a 2 hour Hollywood movie. War is about killing more of the enemy than they get of yours. It’s ugly, and I hate seeing anyone die under the auspices of a government directive. In this case, those in the US that have stated Bush is Satan-incarnate, supported a candidate that voted to go to war.

This is not Viet-Nam. VN was little more than a dick-waving contest between the US and the USSR. There wasn’t a whole lot to fight for, hence the military didn’t have a whole lot of Congressional support.

The Iraqi war is much more personal. There is a country led by a psycho (and many think Bush is dangerous :rolleyes: ) he signed a peace treaty more than a decade ago. He then broke the agreement multiple times.\

Forget the arguments about Iraq. The simple fact that Soddom didn’t live up to his agreement means he broke the cease-fire. That alone meant the Gulf War I was back on.

If Hirohito decided to rebuild his Navy in 1949, would we debate the need to enforce the ceasefire?

[wring]

@JeffyDMan

Are you really naive enough to believe that the Iraqi insurgents give a shit about the Geneva Convention?

In addition to **World Eater’s post, are you naive enough to believe that this is the last armed conflict to which we’ll send troops?

@JeffyDMan

Fuck the fundies. Kill 'em all.

including the Christian ones back here?

[gobear]

@wring

In addition to **World Eater’s post, are you naive enough to believe that this is the last armed conflict to which we’ll send troops?

including the Christian ones back here?

Especially the ones back here.

[World_Eater]

@Mirasawa

There you people go again with your moral equivalence. These terrorists tore up their human cards when they tortured people to death, holed themselves up in mosques, booby trapped their bodies, etc. This marine who put his life on the line for service to his country will be given a courtmartial, and the left will point towards his hair trigger as what’s wrong with America.

It’s a vicious cycle, because now the buddies of the marine are going to be out for revenge, shooting up insurgents, pissing them off more, resulting in more beheadings, causing more hatred towards them, etc etc.

[Merijeek]

@Mirasawa

There you people go again with your moral equivalence. These terrorists tore up their human cards when they tortured people to death, holed themselves up in mosques, booby trapped their bodies, etc. This marine who put his life on the line for service to his country will be given a courtmartial, and the left will point towards his hair trigger as what’s wrong with America.

Uh, who said anything about moral equivalence? Who said the terrorists/insurgents/whoemever getting shot at this week had any morals whatsoever?

Last I heard, the good old USA is supposed to be the good guy. That’s what gives us the moral authority to go out and do whatever is necessary and then claim that we ‘did it for their own good.’

If we’re no different then everyone else out there, maybe everyone should just shut the fuck up about how we’re liberating them and helping them. Or is that what we’re doing, still? Has it changed?

Perhaps, if we’re the good guys, and everyone is supposed to kiss our asses and tell us how great we are, we should actually start acting like the good guys?

Maybe everyone should just stop taking prisoners. Then we’d have the moral equivalence you’re bitching about.

I thought we were supposed to be the good guys. I guess it should have been obvious that had started slipping when the best the SDMB’s very own yes-men could come up with was, “Yeah, but Saddam was worse!”.

Congrats, kiddies. Saddam Hussein was worse than the USA.

How many unnecessary deaths will it take before that statement isn’t true anymore?

-Joe

[Unregistered_Bull]

He either murdered him in cold blood, or somehow thought he was going to somehow set off a booby trap by still being alive. I don’t think that anyone has spun the latter have they?

I’m a Red Stater and think that most Dopers are Liberal idiots who are a danger to my domestic way of life, but continue to be dismayed at why conservatives don’t see Iraq as a huge mistake and so easily excuse torture, murder, and indiscriminate killing on our behalf but not the other sides.

[duffer]

@gobear

Especially the ones back here.

Yeah, I can see that. Calling for the death of your fellow countrymen will help bridge the divide. I’m not fundie, but I am Catholic and tend to take these wishes of death to include me. Love the new all-inclusive mindset of the Dems.

[wring]

@duffer

. Torture (subjective considering what some of them have done) will never sit well with Americans, no matter what those outside the US think of us. Yes, that includes us “red-staters”.

really? you weren’t aware of folks like Rush suggesting that the abuses at AG were something similar to what was done in fraternity houses, and not that bad? you didn’t notice the threads here where posters from the ‘red’ side suggested the same? You weren’t aware that the current submitted for acceptance Attorney General wrote a brief suggesting that torture was an ok response in these circumstances?

IOW - I really thing that you’re wrong.

[Rune]

@Merijeek

Congrats, kiddies. Saddam Hussein was worse than the USA.

How many unnecessary deaths will it take before that statement isn’t true anymore?

Dunno. About 1.5 million or so

[duffer]

@wring

really? you weren’t aware of folks like Rush suggesting that the abuses at AG were something similar to what was done in fraternity houses, and not that bad? you didn’t notice the threads here where posters from the ‘red’ side suggested the same? You weren’t aware that the current submitted for acceptance Attorney General wrote a brief suggesting that torture was an ok response in these circumstances?

IOW - I really thing that you’re wrong.

I wasn’t aware that I had my own opinion on anything. My apologies.

[wring]

@duffer

I wasn’t aware that I had my own opinion on anything. My apologies.

sure, Skippy you’re entitled to your own opinion, but, since you quoted my reply, surely you saw your own fucking words where you asserted that

@duffer

Torture (subjective considering what some of them have done) will never sit well with Americans, no matter what those outside the US think of us. Yes, that includes us “red-staters”.

See, now it’s repeated three times on the same page. Perhaps you’ll want to amend it to "torture will never sit well with Americans (except for Rush, a variety of conservative posters here at SDMB and the nominated Attorney General of the US, to name a few).

[gobear]

@duffer

Yeah, I can see that. Calling for the death of your fellow countrymen will help bridge the divide. I’m not fundie, but I am Catholic and tend to take these wishes of death to include me. Love the new all-inclusive mindset of the Dems.

I don’t speak for the Dems, just for me. Fundies have already declared war on me, I’m just recognizing the situation that already exists.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@JeffyDMan

Are you really naive enough to believe that the Iraqi insurgents give a shit about the Geneva Convention? No doubt in my mind that any American trooper captured allive will be either summarily executed with a shot to the head or filmed being decapitated. They didn’t sign onto the Geneva Convention and they sure as hell won’t adhere to it’s principles. Whole lot of good that does for our troops overseas if they get captured by insurgents.

We’ll see them on CNN getting decapitated.

Fuck the fundies. Kill 'em all.

The ramifications of our conduct re: the Geneva Convention go beyond this specific conflict. It sets a precedent for conflicts to come. Breeching the Convention would also disqualify us from prosecuting any war crimes against anyone else, not just now but in the future.

Breeching the Convention is the same as telling the enemy (not just this enemy but enemies to come), you now have permission to shoot our wounded, torture our captured and commit any attrocity you want against our non-combatants.

[devilsknew]

@JeffyDMan

Fuck the fundies. Kill 'em all.

Come now, they are the moral majority here according to our election results. I’m a democrat and even I don’t wish that upon them.

[World_Eater]

@duffer

Of course not every Iraqi is a terrorist. Those in Abu Grahib that were innocents and subjected to such treatment have a major fucking beef.

You think they’re a bit pissed off? Like so major they’re going to go homes and call jihad on Americans? A bunch of innocent guys who if we’ve not beat the shit out of them or humiliated them might have just gone home and stayed there?

However, I won’t give a pass to all those held there. Torture (subjective considering what some of them have done) will never sit well with Americans, no matter what those outside the US think of us. Yes, that includes us “red-staters”.

Not subjective, torture is bad.

Lynndie England (sp?, no matter as it’s a foghornable spelling) should rot, as well as her cohorts. There was no excuse to do that to people already in custody. As long as those people were in custody, there wasn’t anything else needed to be done.

Yeah well not many people share your sentiment. The soldier who turned them in was just doing his job, he did the right thing, and he got a zillion fucking death threats.

The only scenario I could see would be to try to get info on what their terrorist buddies were planning to do to our troops. Valid. Not nice. But it’s war.

And of course the enemy is allowed this luxury as well right?

I wonder what the reaction would be if a 9 year old girl walked onto a NYC metro train and blew herself up outside of Grand Central.

Can’t happen? Don’t think they aren’t coming up with a plan.
[/quote]

We know they’re coming up with a fucking plan, but it makes no difference, they ain’t going after the heartland.

Again, war is hell. There are going to be civilian casualties. Nobody in the US wants this to happen, but it will. It’s a fact, and will happen. To say anyone on these boards is cheering for it is beyond the pale.

Not on this board, but there are plenty of people cheering.

I agree with those that want to bring the military back home, but not before the job is done. We’re committed, and we have to finish this.

What does “finishing” it entail, and do you believe we can realistically achieve those goals?

This is not Viet-Nam. VN was little more than a dick-waving contest between the US and the USSR. There wasn’t a whole lot to fight for, hence the military didn’t have a whole lot of Congressional support.

The reasons going in are quite different, but things are looking pretty similar right now.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Duffer

Gobear is no Democrat or really even a liberal. He actually self-identifies as a conservative on many issues and even supported the invasion of Iraq in the beginning. His conservatism used to be more evident in his posts but Bush seems to have soured him quite a bit on the Reps.

Gobear, saying “kill all the fundies” doesn’t help anything and you’re too thoughtful and articulate poster to marginalize yourself like that.

[usar_jag]

@Diogenes the Cynic

The Geneva Convention is binding on signatories whether the enemy combatants are signatories or not.

The third paragraph of Article II of the GC provides that it is binding only upon mutual signatories. However, it’s a technical point, and a moot one at that, since the US has stated that it will uphold the provisions of the GC, with respect to lawful combatants of non-signatory parties.

[gobear]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Duffer

Gobear is no Democrat or really even a liberal. He actually self-identifies as a conservative on many issues and even supported the invasion of Iraq in the beginning. His conservatism used to be more evident in his posts but Bush seems to have soured him quite a bit on the Reps.

I’m still a conservative, which is why I can’t support the Pubs. Conservatives don’t start wasteful wars and wreck the national economy. I’m not a fan of the Dems, but I’m allying myself with them until the GOP turns its back on the Bible-thumpers and the neo-con fascists.

Gobear, saying “kill all the fundies” doesn’t help anything and you’re too thoughtful and articulate poster to marginalize yourself like that.

Religious fundamentalism is the harbinger of barbarism. The only difference between our fundies and the Muslim fundies is that ours are so firmly in control of the country that they don’t need to resort to violence to get their way. Given the US fundies’ support of abortion clinic bombings and the killing of doctors, I don’t see that they have an inch of moral high ground on the Taliban or Al Qaeda.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@usar_jag

The third paragraph of Article II of the GC provides that it is binding only upon mutual signatories. However, it’s a technical point, and a moot one at that, since the US has stated that it will uphold the provisions of the GC, with respect to lawful combatants of non-signatory parties.

No, it’s binding on non-signatories as well. Back with a cite in a minute.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@gobear

Religious fundamentalism is the harbinger of barbarism. The only difference between our fundies and the Muslim fundies is that ours are so firmly in control of the country that they don’t need to resort to violence to get their way. Given the US fundies’ support of abortion clinic bombings and the killing of doctors, I don’t see that they have an inch of moral high ground on the Taliban or Al Qaeda.

I agree about the moral equivalency. I just don’t think saying “kill them” is an effective way to deal with them. They have to be educated.

(And hopefully Slate is wrong about what it called the "unteachable ignorance of the red states’)