(Gaudere)
…as for example the Incarnation?
Or any time He interacts. It would be like you or I being able to be “us” even in a 2-D slice (which would be so thin there would be nothing left of us; we can’t be 2-D). 2-D isn’t just a “sheet of paper” thin; it’s width and length, but no height. It’s hard to even conceive of, in a 3-D and 4-D world.
Pretty cool there, Gaudere…, I think I tripped somewhere in the midst of it, though.
I shouldn’t dignify Beeruser’s question to me with a response, and I won’t, since the requisite response should be obvious to all.
As to the rest of the discussion, I’ve nothing to add, really.
Here, as long as I’m doing metaphors, try this one on for size: God as a photon. Now, photons move at the speed of light, so all times are ‘now’ to them, right? Sounds like a good description of God. So if a photon is bouncing around in a room, and five hundred years later (as we measure it) it hits a light-sensitive button that we have moved into place and kills Schrodinger’s Cat. Now at the beginning of its bounces can it alter its path to not kill the kitty? How can it; all times are now! It is killing the kitty in the same “now” as it starts bouncing.
Well, I guess the kitty kill button was really there the whole time, so the kitty kill was part of the plan, right?
With my limited writing ability I seem to be having trouble making myself clear. It makes complete sense to me, but I can’t seem to verbalize it correctly. GRRR
So, here is what I think- in the words of C.S. Lewis…
Does that help at all?
BTW, it’s nice to read you again Rabbi, I missed ya over yonder at LBBB. 
“7But all these things that might have helped me, I call them all nothing, because of Christ. 8Yes, I call them all nothing, because to know Christ Jesus my Lord is much better. It is for his sake that I have given them all up and call them just dirt.”
Phil. 3:6-8
As I maintained earlier, if God is omnipotent, we do not have free will.
If we have free will, God is not omnipotent.
I can come to no other conclusion.
Of course, there are other problems as well if you insist on an omnipotent God.
But we’ll leave that for another day.
kerux: Good post, welcome (grumble grumble). I love that book. have you read “A Grief Observed”?
Rabbi Sam!!! Heartiest Welcome!!!
Shalom!
Yours,
Pheadrus
(can’t beat 'em might as well join 'em)
Exactly, Wally.
If you have free will, no god is omnipotent. Period.
Positing free will as an illusion proves no god, only determinism.
Going back to the OP…
If you’re not christian there is no hell.
I think that this is gonna be one of those things neither side can understand. I don’t understand how God knowing what we are going to do, especially in the context C.S. Lewis described- that all times are now, and God sees what you are doing “now,” but that doesn’t lessen the fact that it is your choice.
I just guess I can’t understand the problem with that. Just one of those things.
Phaedrus- thank you, i think. I’m not quite sure what the grumbling was though… I haven’t read that book… I’m not done with Mere Christianity yet.
But as beatle said, back to the OP…
There either is a hell or there isn’t. Whether one believes in the reality of it has nothing to do with its existance. If your neighbor had a hairless cat, and you didn’t believe that your neighbor would own a hairless cat, because they are so ugly, that wouldn’t affect the cat’s existance.
After we all die, we will see whether or not there is a hell or not… I believe there is, many believe there isn’t… but what you and I believe does not affect the existance of it.
“7But all these things that might have helped me, I call them all nothing, because of Christ. 8Yes, I call them all nothing, because to know Christ Jesus my Lord is much better. It is for his sake that I have given them all up and call them just dirt.”
Phil. 3:6-8
kerux,
First, thanks for trying as opposed to just bombarding us with scripture. I read the C.S. Lewis quote above, and, while it attempts to address the question, it clears up little.
I’m sorry, dear, but that just does not make sense. I realize the pitfalls of posting and understand you may well have had two sentences forming in your mind, so I’ll not quibble over the disjunction. The fact remains that your previous couple of posts do nothing to clear up the matter.
One thing I might add is that, if you consider the vast range of cosmological beliefs abounding, none of which any of the adherents can prove, almost all of us (if not all) have got it wrong.
Also happy to see you made it to this board, Rabbi Sam.
And speaking of a 2-Dimensional existence, Gaudere:
Have you ever read The Planiverse, by A.K. Dewdney? He goes in to MUCH greater detail about how life (i.e. biology) could exist in a 2-dimensional universe than old Edwin Abbot’s Flatland ever did. The stars and planets are circles (not spheres), the continents and oceans are on the outer edge of their circular “Earth”, and hollow tubes – which require at least 3 dimensions to keep from collapsing – are replaced by “zipper joints” which open and close in small lengths to let objects pass through. The complete world Dewdney creates is quite fascinating and eminently workable in only 2 dimensions.
The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.
tracer,As to God sending someone to hell: Hell was created for the devil and the fallen angels.However,if someone is guilty,should they not go to jail?
I’ve never read The Planiverse. It sounds cool; the “zipper tubes” is a great idea. I did read Flatland; the bit I remeber best about that was the author’s misogyny. The “females” (who were triangles; men were varying degrees of 4 or more sided polygons, up to circles) were incredibly stupid and were required by law to constantly move the “point” of their triangle back and forth so the others could see them, because otherwise they’d impale their own family. I liked the story anyway.
Just had to share this: The funniest example of God and omnipotence came from the campus preacher (Mad Max) at the University of Illinois (he actually travels around, but that’s where I was). Before the Gulf War, when we were building up troops, he was preaching that God told him we would lose to the Iraqi army and our forces would be crushed. Then, when it didn’t happen, we asked him why. His response? “God changed His mind.”
Ah, of course. An omnipotent being told him one thing but then “changed His mind” about it. But wouldn’t He, being omnipotent, know He was going to change His mind? Needless to say, Max changed the subject.
If we ever get to the point where we can understand G-d, then he will no longer be
G-d. He/She/It will be nothing more than the vain imaginings of our own finite intellect, hopes and dreams.
Yet with each discussion we have with each other concerning G-d we come that much closer to knowing G-d.
Ahhh, paradox, ain’t life grand…? Are to quote a famous man:
“Reality, what a concept!”
Robin Williams
shema yisrael adonai eloheynu adonai echad
Tracer:
How does a two dimensional creature discern a circle from a square without traversing its circumference? Also, isn’t it true that he can’t tell whether the shapes are solid or not? (He can’t get over the “wall”.)
“It is lucky for rulers that men do not think.” — Adolf Hitler