Banks What makes you think saints are going to be crying? If you don’t think they will be crying, why did you quote Billy Joel?
There is only ONE WAY! (John 14:6)
Hey, Nav, good to see you here!
I think Billy Joel’s point was that those who speak as if they know what God’s for and against, also tend to be the ones glaring from across the room when “we might be laughing a bit too loud, but that never hurt no one.” That sort of cardboard saint…well, usually has his/her teeth clenched too hard to be crying, but you get the idea.
Let’s say that I am a god. I am all powerful, and all knowing. Does this mean that what you do tomorrow is set in stone? Is everyone’s future unchangable? Just because I can control what happens in every individuals life, does not mean that I do.
It’s been said that God sees time as one image. In other words, it’s not linear. But, we still control the power to change the future. No, you can’t trick God, or pull a fast one on Him. When you decide to change plans, He knows it ahead of time. But the fact remains that we are still in control of the present. We chose whom we serve.
Adam
“Life is hard…but God is good”
Adam, you obviously did not spend much time thinking about this.
Either the future is changeable, in which case God has an imperfect view of it, or it is unchangeable, in which case there is no free will.
You can’t have it both ways.
A seminar on time travel will be held two weeks ago.
Try not to think of this in the eyes of science Wally. God is outside of the natural realm, and inhabits the supernatural. He is omnipotent, and we do have free will.
I think I see what you’re thinking of though. You’re saying that God looks at time, as a rigid, unchangable thing, right? He sees it all in one piece, so it must not be “flexible” in your mind. But, obviously, you know that we DO have free will, and CAN change the future. Honestly, I don’t fully understand how God interacts with the laws of time. But, I do believe in Him, and His omnipotence.
Adam
“Life is hard…but God is good”
Is it true hell has an open bar?
My objective was to acquaint them with an alternative point of view. My manner was dictated by their approach. My point remains the same. For a moral being who truly understands the nature of “infinite” and “eternal”, the concept of Hell which these posters were advocating is unconscionable. The fact that they are unable to reason to the conclusion of their premises is simply unsurprising.
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
Plus, of course, the Atheist Bible requires me to evangelize The Truth [TM] to all those wayward Christian sheep out there. (KIDDING! Kidding!)
RTFirefly wrote:
I, too, regret not pointing this out the instant Melin said it. It’s perfectly reasonable not to put ones e-mail address in ones personal information – if for no other reason than to keep junk e-mail from becoming a problem.
Now, though, there are at least 5 messages in the “We Are Under Attack” thread over on the LBMB which claim us Straight-Dopers chided them and called them cowards for not revealing their e-mail addresses to us.
Wow, this is the third thread I’ve posted on, and I really appreciate the chance to give my 3 cents (I tend to be wordy) on some of the things people are saying.
First, RTFirefly (nightmare), it’s nice to see you here. I missed ya on the other thread. I thought, and still think, you have some excellant comments.
Now-
First if you take the stance that God is omnipotent then he can have and do whatever he wants. If he wants to be able to know the future and what will happen, but not control it, then he can.
The idea of Omniscence (sp?) and Predestination is a debate even among christians. This is my take-
God can and does know what will happen. He know the beginning and end of the story, along with everything in between. But he chooses to let us write the story.
We still have the choice to do what we do, and God just knows what we are going to choose. That’s all.
EVEN if it doesn’t make sense or be logical (it does make sense and is logical to me), God is omnipotent so it can still happen.
“7But all these things that might have helped me, I call them all nothing, because of Christ. 8Yes, I call them all nothing, because to know Christ Jesus my Lord is much better. It is for his sake that I have given them all up and call them just dirt.”
Phil. 3:6-8
Well Roxy, if your not too much a fundementalist and are open minded enough to accept som historical validity on the evolution of the whole concept of paradise and hell; I refer you to my website. After clicking on the Link below, then click on the Link at the top of the page entitled
“Torah Lessons.” Like I said, if your not too closed minded, what you learn there about Hell and how it came to be seen throughout the ages may be an eye-opener for you.
http://pages.hotbot.com/und/sksloan/index.html
Shalom,
Rabbi Sam
shema yisrael adonai eloheynu adonai echad
These feats of mental gymnastics are beyond my abilities.
If God knows the story, then it has been written. It’s a done thing. We are actors, saying the lines, performing the actions.
If God knows in advance what we are going to do, we are powerless to change it.
That is NOT free will.
A seminar on time travel will be held two weeks ago.
Spiritus Mundi wrote:
Now if I were to break my own self-imposed silence about my religion and tell you that it teaches that finite sin DOES have only finite punishment, I would. But I’m still on vacation, so I won’t mention it. 
Rabbi Sam, welcome to the SDMB. I’m sure I’m not alone in hoping that you will stick around and favor us with your wisdom, your learnedness, your gentlemanly demeanor and your wit and charm. I also hope that you will find us to generally live up to the standards of respect and decorum that you consistently display over on the LBMB (caveat emptor: the level of discourse can become quite …spirited, at times, but I can assure you that it will not be you or your way of life that comes up for challenge, it will be the things you say to us. In cases where the preceding does not apply, you will find yourself defended by a wide array of posters, with belief systems ranging from hard atheism to zealous, albeit respectful, evangelical Christianity. Also various stripes of Jews, mystics, and non-denominational seekers after wisdom and Truth).
So, make yourself at home, visit the various forums (or fora, if you prefer), and PLEASE become as valuable a member over here as you were/are on the LBMB (and, if I may say so, far more valued).
I second kaylasdad’s good wishes to the Rabbi. I used to read the LBB as much as the SDMB until the Rabbi was obliged to leave, and am delighted to see him here, where I hope he will write often.
I am also actually very glad that the cloak-and-dagger nonsense with LBB is over and done with - it was really a bit juvenile, I thought. (No, it wasn’t me that shopped you, although I did think about it at one point.) So I’m pleased too that there are LBBers here now - hello!
As for this thread, I agree entirely with Adam. Just because we don’t fully understand the mechanics of it, doesn’t mean that it cannot be true that God is omnipotent/-scient and also that we have free will. I don’t know why Wally wd expect the universe to conform to what he personally can understand, but trust he will have the humility to accept that it need not and in fact doesn’t - which I think must be a relief to us all.
Is this the same famous/infamous Rabbi Sam from the LBBB? Welcome, welcome! I read some of your posts over there when I was checking out their board, and enjoyed them very much. (Uh, no, I’m not one of the alleged ‘attack’ team.)
Glad you’ve found us, hope you’ll stay!
Carpe diem - Seize the day
Carpe noctem - Seize the night
Carpe cerevisi - Seize the beer
Hiya Rabbi! I would like to echo the hopes offered above that you’ll hang around for awhile. Your posts have always been educational.
Back on Topic: The only way that I, with my limited mortal mind, can reconcile Free Will with an Omniscient God is to believe that God sees ALL possible futures.
I know no better way to describe it without invoking Quantum theory, EPR translocation, and Mr. S’s favorite feline, all of which I am painfully ignorant about.
-David
Ah, but then how does God know which particular timeline we will pick, so he can predict things? If I knew all the possible futures, how would I know what would happen tomorrow? I would know everything that could happen but not what will, I think.
Maybe there is no “one true reality”…all potential timelines may be as valid–and possibly as real–as this one.
Like I said…I just don’t know.
-David
*Oh…and might I suggest reading The Man Who Folded Himself * by David Gerrold? Pretty good fiction relating to alternate, but valid, timelines…old, though.
But if all the potential realities are real, and God knows what happens in each one, we have Wally’s dilemma again. Boy, sometimes I’m glad I’m an atheist and don’t have to fret about such things. Perhaps if God is a four-dimensional being (existing in all times at once) we can step everything down one level and use as a metaphor God as a three dimensional being, and our world as a 2-D surface moving through Him (to represent our 3-D world moving through the 4th dimension, time). However, then our metaphorical 3D being must be able to exist and interact fully as a infinitely thin 2D slice, and we have no evidence that such a thing could happen. Hmm…this may be why some prefer to have faith than think.
AAAAHHHHHHHHHHH…my head!!!