To cooldude: The Rapture can happen at any moment. Until then, the Christians are here to witness to the world in order to win souls for Jesus. We have every right that you do, including having a driver’s license, operating heavy machinery, etc. We all need to work in order to live. (i.e. food, transportation, utilities, a roof over our heads, etc.) If you’re willing to strip that right from one group of people, then it would be wise to strip that right from all people. Besides, during the Tribulation, there will come a time when, unless you have the mark of the beast on your right hand or forehead, that you won’t be able to buy, sell, work, etc. If I’m still here on earth when that happens, you can be assured that since I won’t take the mark, I won’t be driving or operating heavy machinery. (Maybe the embalming machine, but not heavy machinery. In case your wondering, I’m going to school to become a funeral director)
To Kvallulf: No one knows what will happen to our pets. I, myself, own a darling 2.5 year old cat named Noel, and he is my little “baby” so to speak. I love him dearly and would love to have him up in heaven with me! However, I don’t know if he will be or not. Only time will tell.
God bless.
Victoria Rose
There is a reason for everything, no matter what happens to us.
Well, thats to bad about the not being able to work without the mark of the beast. Kind of like a social security card for the damned.
Anyway, my pets are dependent on me for food, water, and shelter. So I have to say sorry, if they can’t go, I am not going. Besides I already have my wings.
Victoria_Rose:
Satan found his way over to the board, from two of your members who argued and attacked him and then ran off, telling him he was going to Hell. He then told the rest of us, and about half-a-dozen went over to debate (not myself). They did not go over there and start several threads with random atheist quotes, unlike you who clogged our boards. I have not seen ill behavior from the Dopers on the LBMB, and I saw a great deal of hatred, smugness and willful ignorance from some of your regulars. Some of your people over there seem very nice; I will not tar all “fundies” with the same brush for the actions of some. But, in truth, there seems to be a culture there that approves of smugly crushing dissenting opinions. If you had come to debate with us with honest intentions of discussion, you would have been welcome. Here, we allow dissenting opinion; we do not delete threads that contain opinions that make us uncomfortable, or force the end of a thread we do not like. If you post here and then choose to then put a thread on your site talking about how silly and stupid we are, I will not find it offensive; I will think it really really funny. The SDMB posters honestly meant well, as far as I can tell, and were they not even praised by some of your members for their questions? Can you say the same for your members when they came here?
Is the excerpt posted on the LB site a particularly bad one? Because, I must say, it’s very badly written. Flat characterization and a heavy-handed approach to character psychology. Hey, I have no problem with anyone reading the occasional bit of amusing fluff, but better writing is well worth the effort to find. If you like Christian fiction, I suggest C.S. Lewis; I’m not impressed with his logical apologist arguments, but he can write. The Bible itself has some amazingly well-written passages, like Genesis. God is a terribly uneven writer, though, and sometimes wanders off into dull geneologies and gratuitous sexuality and horror (“members like asses”, children being mauled by bears, et al).
I appoligize for my erronacy. I didn’t realize that 2 of the LBBB members had said that. If they truely said it in the manner that you say they did, they were wrong in doing so. However, if they were trying to help “Satan” by trying to witness to him, they should have done it a little more gently, if that’s the word. However, the DOZEN or so people that I counted that did go over there were a LITTLE harsh in their statements. I read all the ones that I was able to read. The fellowship hall is a place where we encourage each other in our walk with Christ. We are not there to “bash” each other. From some of the things that I’ve read, the members of the LBBB were getting quite fed up with some of the remarks that were being made by the members of the SDMB. As I was reading the messages left on both MB’s, I was getting quite angry myself, and there were several things that I wanted to say to you people, which, since I’m calmed down now, I won’t. Actually, I’ve even forgotten most of the things I was going to say anyway. I can see quite well why they were saying the things that they were.
God bless.
Victoria Rose
There is a reason for everything, no matter what happens to us.
I try to be fair and courtious. I let people voice their views, but I also let them know how I feel about the same topic. I think a lot of it has to do with the life that I lived before I became a Christian 5.5 years ago. I was mentally and verbally abused by my dad, molested by my grandfather, etc. However, since becoming a Christian, and being forgiven of my sins, I have forgiven my dad and grandfather. (Yes, it is possible to do!) Actually, in order for me to be healed from the pain of the abuse, I had to forgive them. That’s why I love Jesus so much! He forgive me for my sins, which, in turn, I forgave some people who had majorly sinned against me. It may seem like it would be extremely difficult, or even impossible to do, (which it WAS very difficult to do) but I had to do it. I love both of them very much now!
Like I said, I think it has been my life experiences that have made me the way I am. It takes a lot to get me mad, and even more to make me spout my anger. However, everything happens to everyone for a reason.
God bless!
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Victoria Rose.
There is a reason for everything, no matter what happens to us.
Bullshit. If God didn’t want us to go to hell, He would just make it so – He would snap His fingers (or do whatever it is God does when making a decree) and say, “Nobody’s going to hell, no matter what.” The Bible makes it abundantly clear that God has done NO such thing; in fact, God’s choice to abandon every non-Believer to the clutches of Satan (whom God also created) speaks volumes about God’s real motivation.
Or it would, if I believed that a collection of 66 poorly-written and self-contradictory ancient books were anything more than an exercise in mythology.
The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.
Tracer: Come now. Let’s be reasonable. You do like your free will right? The right to chose whom you serve? God’s gift to us is free will, and it’s He won’t “snap His fingers” and make it so. And where in the Bible does it say that God created Satan? I could have missed it, but I’m pretty sure it’s not in there. God DID create an angel, who also had free will. (As all angels do) The angel simply got prideful, and was tossed from heaven.
I would quote you Scripture, but it wouldn’t do any good. Even if you don’t believe what the Bible says, you should at least know what it says, before you make such claims. I wonder what it would take for you to believe.
Tracer:
It’s really even simpler than that. If an omnipotent and omniscient creator of all things did not want some people to go to Hell, then He would not create one.
So, if you believe God exists and Hell exists, then it follows trivially that God wants some people to go to Hell. Now, infinite punishment is inherently cruel, and infinite punishment for a finite act is inherently unjust. Therefore, God not only wants people to go to Hell, he wants to do it because He is cruel and unjust. At least, that is the logical conclusion implied by the belief that sinners go to Hell.
The best lack all conviction
The worst are full of passionate intensity.
*
Tracer: I feel like we’ve nitpicked at this before. But for the benefit of those who did not read that discussion, we’ll try again.
Believe it or not, you are chosing to go to heaven, or hell. At this point, I’m assuming you’re not Christian, and are therefore chosing hell. God does not want you there. In fact, He wants you in heaven with Him so much, that He sent His Son to die for you, that you may be cleasned of your sin, and made blameless in God’s eyes.
That right there is Christianity in a nutshell, and I’m sure you already know that. You just don’t believe it.
You asked if God could have created us without the will to chose our master. Sure, He could have. You’re a smart person, you know this stuff. But imagine what humans would be like without free will? It’s actually unimaginable to me, since “free will” is one of the things that defines humanity.
It’s so simple.
I’ve always liked the Greek Gods. I think I’ll believe in them instead. I wonder what if I get to have an eternal soul or not. Maybe I’ll get to father a demi-God.
ARG, you can’t believe in free will and an omnipotent God at the same time. Even I know that.
To an omnipotent God, all of the future would be before His eyes. He knows what I’m going to do before I do. Therefore, the future has been determined. Therefore, there is no free will.
A seminar on time travel will be held two weeks ago.
Folks: aren’t we getting far more steamed up than either Roxy’s or Vicki’s posts warrant?
Melin: when posting in an unfamiliar place, I think it’s circumspect, rather than cowardly, to not reveal too much. (Including one’s email address.) I went months here before putting mine up; in the weeks that I was on the LBMB, I never gave my email address out there since I figured it would be silly to give Thomas and friends the opportunity to rant at me through that medium, in addition to the LBMB itself.
Got our hackles up here, guys?
Spiritus, tracer - what’s your object, to make us look almost as uncivil as the LBMB? It’s working.
Vic - did SDMBers start debates in the Fellowship Hall? I must admit I was unaware of that, and I apologize for them if that happened. I stayed with the Narrow Road forum, because that was given as the appropriate place for debates, and I was aware that there was a last-days or end-times forum where debate also took place, and SDMBers participated. But the Fellowship Hall should’ve been off limits for anything but fellowship, and I apologize for my friends if they sowed dissent over there.
Vic, I drink beer and wine not for effect, but because I like it, and because, as the Bible makes abundantly clear, it’s a good thing. As CS Lewis pointed out, Jesus’ first miracle involved the creation of wine. And as Isaiah prophesied, “On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine - the best of meats and the finest of wines.” (Is.25:6, NIV; italics mine.)
Now, about that swearing: what’s worse - saying ‘damn’ or keeping silent while contemporary Jews are tagged as Christ-killers? Isaiah (29:13) again: “These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.” I agree that swearing isn’t good, and the moment it makes the list of one of my forty or fifty worst routine sins, I promise to get to work on it. Right now, to be frank, swearing is down in the white noise, and the Lord doesn’t seem to be pushing me on it, whereas there are serious areas of sin in my life that He is making noise about. First things first.
Well, I guess I’ll go back to thinking I’m a Christian now.
The SDMB posters honestly meant well, as far as I can tell, and were they not even praised by some of your members for their questions? Can you say the same for your members when they came here?