Hebrew Gods?

Diogenes, I did read the book. In fact, I read it based on the recommendation of someone on this board last year, and, as I noticed some of these issues, I took down notes. I don’t seem to have taken notes on the entire book, but I can offer some illustrative examples.

Well, as far as chronology goes, the main beef that traditional Jewish histories have against Jewish history as filtered through secular chronology/archaeology is a discrepancy of some 160 years in the date of the Babylonian exile. Based on certain histories of ancient Egypt (are the source documents for that Greek? I’ve never been able to find a clear answer on that), secular historians have fixed the date of the encounter between Pharaoh Necho and King Josiah in the late 7th century BCE, the Babylonian conquest of Judah at 586 BCE, the return of the Jewish exiles at 516 BCE, and assign a two-century period of time to Persian hegemony over the Middle East, which results in a gap of similar length in Jewish history, over which events that Jewish history say occurred during the time of Persian hegemony have been assigned to scattered dates.

Traditional Jewish chronology, on the other hand, says that the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem took place in 422 BCE, and the return from exile in 352 BCE, with Persian hegemony over the Middle East lasting for only about fifty years, and with no gap at all between the end of Biblical history and Alexander the Great’s conquest of the Middle East, following which point both chronologies agree on things. Orthodox Jewish historians have assumed interpretive error on the part of secular historians regarding the dates above.

This leads to a significant re-shuffling of dates. The F & S book, for example, finds no evidence of a strong united Jewish monarchy in the period their chronology would ascribe to Saul, David and Solomon - approximately the 11th century BCE. They do, however, write a whole chapter on what they say is evidence of a splendid and strong Omric dynasty of the Northern Kingdom in the 9th century BCE, and they specifically speak of ruins of stables that had long been ascribed to Solomon - but can’t be, because archaeological dating says they’re from much later than Solomon ruled.

Traditional Jewish dating, on the other hand, has the monarchial period beginning with Saul in 880 BCE, David assuming the throne in 877 BCE and Solomon succeeding him in 837 BCE. This would mean that the archaeologists’ 11th-century-BCE artifacts, from which they conclude that the united Israelite Kingdom is fiction, are from the relatively anarchic “Judges” period, and such evidence of a powerful kingdom as “Solomon’s stables” which they ascribe to Omri and his successors actually are from the reign of Solomon.

For reasons that may be partially or entirely connected to the above chronologal dispute, F & S and other secular archaeologists also mess around with the dating of the Patriarchal period. The book makes attempts to place Abraham in the range of 2100 BCE, and makes note of what they see as Biblical anachronisms. On the other hand, traditional Jewish chronology has Abraham born in 1872 BCE and the Biblically recorded events of his life taking place in the mid-18th century BCE and later, which would strike a blow to the “debunking.” The book also considers anachronistic the Biblical reference to Rameses in the book of Exodus, because they feel the need to ascribe an earlier date to the sojourn in Egypt than Jewish tradition does. However, traditional Jewish chronology has the Israelites leaving Egypt in 1312 BCE, several years after Rameses I ruled as Pharaoh, and thus not problematic.

Those are some of the chronological issues involved. As for assumptions: there is the issue that a nation spending 40 years in the Sinai desert would leave behind some trace of its daily life. This only holds true if one goes with the assumption that their lives were lived in a completely mundane way. But that’s not what the Bible says happened, was it? The Bible (or Biblically-based tradition) says that they ate miraculous Manna, drank water from a miraculous rock-well, and that they were surrounded on all sides by ethereal clouds. It says that they lived in tents, that their clothes and shoes miraculously never wore out, and their house of worship was disassembled and carried with them wherever they went. Their (our) deity having no visual form, no telltale icons or sculptures could be expected to be found along the route. Such a passage would clearly not leave the kind of traces archaeologists expect to see of non-miraculous sojourns.

NOTE: I AM NOT saying that it’s inherently unreasonable to disbelieve in the Biblical miracles mentioned and to instead assume natural occurrences. All I’m saying is that this CANNOT BE TAKEN AS A REFUTATION of the Biblical narrative, because the Biblical narrative, when taken in its entirety, obviates these difficulties.

Another assumption that they change is the nature of the conquest of Canaan. Because there is no evidence of the destruction of land and property that would accord with their perception of military conquest, they instead say the evidence points to a gradual migration. But the Bible itself indicates that G-d promised the Israelites that they would take over an intact country - they’d take possession of fields and vineyards they did not plant, houses they did not build, etc. The Midrash relates that when the Jews left Egypt, the Canaanites destroyed their homes and fields so the would-be conquerers would end up with nothing, and that part of G-d’s plan in making the Israelites sojourn for forty years was to induce the Canaanites to rebuild so the Israelites would have an intact country to take over. Believe what you want to or don’t want to about the Biblical/traditional history - it is consistent with the evidence, and the inconsistencies seen by F & S and others is a result of their making assumptions that are contrary to the Biblical version.

Well, it’s possible, though far from certain, that this is the altar built by Joshua during said conquest.

But more to the point: there is certainly very little evidence, but there is (according to the Biblical narrative) an expectation of little evidence, as indicated above…and that’s aside from the expectation of little evidence that comes with the distance in time. And pretty much all of what is considered in the secular archaeological community to be contradictory evidence is only so due to a disputed chronology.

Again, with the Judaic G-d having no physical form, what would you expect to be genuine evidence? And an equally relevant question is: what evidence is there that the idolatrous finds from that period represented an earlier form of what is now the Jewish religion rather than, as the Bible describes it, rampant sinning against said religion (especially in the Northern kingdom)?

[QUOTE=cmkeller]
And pretty much all of what is considered in the secular archaeological community to be contradictory evidence is only so due to a disputed chronology.

[QUOTE]

Well chronology is rather important. It becomes even more important when you use as evidence something like your cite about Joshua’s altar,the altar on mount Ebel.

Unfortunately the situation becomes even more befuddled now that conventional(secular) chronology isn’t that accepted anymore.
For some time now a new chronology is slowly rising in popularity. It is based on the fact that the calculations based on the Egyptian kings list are wrong. It was assumed that the 21st and 22nd dynasties ruled one after the other. It now seems that they ruled different parts of Egypt around the same time. This could bring forward Egyptian history (and dates derived from that history) forward to something of maybe 350 years.
Your article itself states that the best identifier for the period in which the altar was built is an Egyptian scarab. The scarab is of a style dated to the reigns of Ramses II and Ramses III. Conventional chronology would have Ramses II (19th dynasty; 13th century B.C.) and RamsesIII (20th dynasty; beginning of 12th century B.C.)
Joshua is securely set in around 1220 B.C. in both conventional and revised chronology.
Conventional (and Jewish) chronology would therefore have the temple built around the time of Joshua.

New chronology places the period Ramses II/III from about 950 B.C. to about 850 B.C.
This would rather disprove it being a temple from the time of Joshua.
I have been having a problem with conventional vs new chronology.
I had always thought the Philistines arrived with the ‘Sea-Peoples’ invasions, around 1200 B.C., according to conventional chronology.
Saul and David are placed around 1050- 1000 B.C. in both chronologies. They seem to be having some troubles with the Philistines.
Ok, so they settled in Israel after their defeat by Ramses III

However, the new chronology would have the invasions of the ‘Sea-Peoples’ starting in 867 and the arrival of the Peleset in Egypt in 855.
That would mean that there was already a Mycaenean (?) colony of Peleset/Philistines in Israel some 200 years before their invasion of Egypt?

If Jewish traditional chronology is right, in that it ‘has the monarchial period beginning with Saul in 880 BCE, David assuming the throne in 877 BCE ‘, that would fit better.
Interresting stuff this dating buisiness, innit?

Anyone have a good site that shows some of the actual calcultaions involved in establishing a chronology?

Latro:

Agreed…hopefully, I was clear on that.

Well, I said it might be. Barring a Hebrew graffito saying “Joshua son of Nun sacrificed here”, there’s no way to say for certain, but the possibility is certainly intriguing. It’s certainly not as cockamamie a speculation as those “Noah’s arks” that you occasionally see.

This is very interesting…can you point me to any works on this subject?

Actually, Jewish chronology says that the Israelites crossing the Jordan happened about 50 years earlier, in 1272 BCE.

Yes…but with a major caveat. If the previously accepted chronologies were wrong, then many of the artifacts may have been ascribed to the correct time-period, but the wrong personality. Revising chronologies makes it important to separate what has been dated based on scientifically-established physical evidence and what has been dated based on association with a personality or culture but without the hard physical dating.

While posting to this thread, I did some searching and came across the following web page which deals with the chronology issues from a traditional Jewish perspective by reexamining the original sources of the accepted history:

http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/heifetzfix.html

You’ve given me some stuff to think about, cmk, and I thank you for the link. I don’t agree with everything you’ve said. It probably goes without saying that I don’t accept miraculous explanations (and I think the Exodus would require a miraculous explanation for the lack of evidence in the Sinai Peninsual). Another disagreement would be semantic. I think if the Israelites worshipped other gods, then they were polytheistic by definition regardless of any “backsliding” explanations.

I also wonder how Orthodox chronology for Joshua’s conquest can be reconciled with the fact that radiocarbon dating shows that the fortified city of Jericho was destroyed in 1550 BCE, which puts it almost 300 years before the date you provided for Joshua crossing the Jordan. Also the city of Ai had not inhabited for over 1000 years before the traditional destruction by Joshua.

I respect your point of view, though, as well as your patience with this discussion. I know it must be annoying to see people engage in such cavalier dismissals of historical events which are sacred to your faith.

I am far from an expert, but I’m pretty sure that archeologists have found several layers of soot, indicating that Jericho was burned down several times, one of which was 13th century and matches the biblical account

Incorrect.

The latest date anyone has even tried to argue for is 1400, which is still more than a hundred years before Joshua. Radiocarbon dating puts it well into the 16th century, though.

Jericho was probably not even inhabited in the 13th century and it definitely didn’t have walls.

Diogenes:

I agree that anyone who was worshipping multiple gods was by definition polytheistic. The issue at hand is, was that an earlier form of what is now the Judaic religion? Or was it a different religion, being practiced by people disbelieving in or rebelling against it? Arabs prior to Mohammed were pagans, but no one would say that the prior paganism was an early form of Islam which eventually evolved to monotheism.

Well, quoting from my Torah Anthology on Joshua: “When the walls [of Jericho] fell, the ground beneath them opened up and swallowed them. In that way, no stones fell on the heads of the Jews who were standing in close formation around the city. It also made it possible for them to go straight in without having to climb over the rubble.”

So…would there be an archaeologically-detectable difference between a non-walled city and a city that had walls which were miraculously sunk into the ground? This gets back to the point I made in that post, about refuting events AS BIBLICALLY described vs. refuting Biblical events non-miraculously described.

Are we sure the site was COMPLETELY uninhabited? Do remember that the book of Joshua says it was a very small city. Or, perhaps, this small Ai described by the book of Joshua is in the general region, but not the same exact location archaologist have identified as Ai; it might have been a general name for the region rather than a name that applied only to one spot.

Or, being a simple single syllable, the name “Ai” may have been simple to come up with by different peoples in different places.

Thanks. Fortunately, your disagreements are not quite so cavalier, and that makes it a pleasure - and patience, easy - in discussing such matters with you.

(It did surprise you that I read and was well-versed in the F&S book, though, didn’t it? :wink: )

I admit it, I didn’t expect you to have read it and it’s to your credit that you have. :slight_smile:

Fascinating - I’ve never heard this before. This is not a field of debate I am well-versed in, not being up on either the Judaic history of the ME or the current standing of the archaeological evidence for the region and period. But it would seem this discrepancy with Achaemenid Persia is fairly glaring. My understanding ( based on the perhaps incomplete survey works of historians like Olmstead and more recently, Wiesehofer ) is that there are reasonably extensive royal inscriptions and other evidence attesting to the existence of most of the Achaemenid monarchs, with some sort of rough chronology for at least some of them ( granted over half thwe inscriptions date from the reigns of Darius I and Xerxes, but apparently they do continue on at a reduced volume after Artaxerxes I ). Not to mention the many collaborative accounts from diverse sources like the Babylonians ( including astronomical entries for augury ), Egyptians, obviously the Old Testament and the Greeks. Figures like Darius I and Xerxes are obviously well-attested to, but so seemingly would be rulers like Artaxerxes II ( who lost Egypt ) from sources like Xenophon and Artaxerxes III ( who regained Egypt ).

Is there in fact some elements of the archaeological community that consider some of these rulers chimera or the length of their reigns suspect? Are their accessible parallel histories of the Achaemenid period as set forth by Orthodox Jewish scholars that explain the possible source of these presumed discrepancies?

  • Tamerlane

D.M. Rohl with A Test of Times and P.James with Centuries of Darkness seem to be the main instigators of this upheaval.

Hmm, that would push it even further away from the Iron Age I dating, they were giving it in the article, wouldn’t it

Indeed, it appears that many a carbon 14 reading seems to not have been taken into consideration because the readings were too far off.
Chronology is a complicated buiseness. Good scientific period evidence, like C14 or dendrochronology is often rare.
A lot is based on evolutions in design, layer stratification or what have you, all intertwined and hinging on a few (or even single) positive dates. So, one wrong dating method could collapse a bunch of other datings like a house of cards.