Hegemon's Divorce? The US, Europe & Rest of the World

Although I am not an immense fan of making debates out of opinion pieces, I am great fan of Martin Wolf and his analyses.

As such, I thought I would bring to your attention his recent column: “The transatlantic alliance is in trouble” (Martin Wolf) Financial Times 20 May 20 2003

Wolf herein discusses recent fall out from the Iraq war in the context of damaged Euro-US relations (and a damaged global image of the US). I am going to try to quote extensively from Wolf to provide a basis for comment:

He notes “I went to the [Bildinger] meeting convinced that divorce between the US and Europe had become possible. I left thinking that it could easily become unstoppable.” Wolf seques into discussing Clyde Prestowitz’s new book Rogue Nation noting Prestowitz, “a former member of the Reagan administration, has expressed the worry in his provocatively entitled new book, Rogue Nation.”

Wolf argues there are two significant points to take away from Prestowitz: “The first is that “the imperial project of the so-called neo-conservatives is not conservativism at all, but radicalism, egotism and adventurism articulated in the stirring rhetoric of traditional patriotism”. The second is that this radicalism both frightens and enrages foreigners.”

Well, I can certainly report first hand that the second is clearly true. The first is something perhaps a bit provocative. The reference is of course to Wolfowitz et al’s strategic document XXXXXXXXX

Wolf further observes: “What astonished me at the meeting is that these emotions are felt by pro-American businesspeople, politicians, academics and journalists. Americans believe that French and German opposition to the war in Iraq was a betrayal of decades of support. But many Europeans believe recent US behaviour was a betrayal of what the US has taught them. The ideological gulf is wide.

Certainly I can add to Wolf’s observation that I have seen precisely the same reaction among pro-Western Arabs and others in my region. I speak of pro-western business people, running divisions of multinationals, or Arab mini-multinationals themselves.

Wolf further observes that while there are many common values, “Europe and the US have become very different. Most important, the US has now adopted old European theories of international relations, while the Europeans have embraced a newer American one.” An interesting reversal, I am not sure if I would personally agree that Europeans have adopted an American theory of international relations per se, but it does seem clear that the Wolfowitz et al faction has adopted parts of an old European attitude, mixed with dollops of idealism they call “Realism”.

Wolf notes that in the classical system “states recognised neither legal nor moral constraints. But states also agreed not to interfere in one another’s internal affairs. Today’s European states reject this view of the world, because it engendered catastrophe. Operating within an unstable balance of power, illiberal states fomented wars that brought the deaths of millions.” He adds “The answer … was to embrace the ideals proffered by …. Woodrow Wilson: peace, free markets and democracy. Within Europe, under American auspices, they created a supra-national order that stood the classical system on its head. Instead … Europe would have a supra-national authority and a shared commitment to democracy and human rights. Sensible Europeans are not naive enough to believe the world can operate without resort to force. They are also grateful to the US for its ability and willingness to apply that force. But they are Wilsonian, for an obvious reason: if Germany were to announce its adherence to the doctrines that now animate the US, stability in Europe would vanish.

Fair enough analysis. One can certainly quibble with the details – although let’s recall it is a column and not a detailed analysis, as a quick paragraph collapsing of 50 years of history I think it’s serviceable.

Wolf then turns to the US, arguing that the US is no longer “Wilsonian” and points to the specific policy competition between factions in the Administration. He argues “we must recognise the tension within the administration between nationalists and neo-conservatives. Where they agree is in their rejection of moral or legal constraints on the sovereign independence of the US. Where they disagree is on how far pursuit of those interests requires interference in the internal organisation of other states. Nationalists focus only on direct threats, principally state sponsorship of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. Neo-conservatives desire to embed liberal democracy, as well, since its absence explains, in their view, why states generate these threats.” Again given that this is but a paragraph summary of a larger argument, let’s not quibble over Wolf collapsing numerous details, the argument or analysis per se seems to me fair, in terms of contrasting two schools of thought with the underlined joining position.

Wolf, on the basis of the above resume (and do recall it is a resume) argues that “* (n)ationalists then are anti-Wilsonian in both their means and their ends. Liberal imperialists are anti-Wilsonian in their means, but Wilsonian in their ends.*” A fair assessement I would say, if we take as given the resume, which given the constraints of the space, seems broadly fair to me. Wolf further observes “Yet both groups unambiguously reject the secular religion of contemporary European elites, which is Wilsonian in means and ends. The new US doctrines are, from the general European point of view, poison. They invite them back to the world of Bismarck. For many Europeans the contemporary American ideology is made more bitter by the perception that it represents a betrayal of what they have learned from the US.” I would amplify the observation, which certainly as an expression of a point of view is broadly correct, even if some of our observers might argue the perception is incorrect. I would hazard the opinion the perception is also correct, but let us lay that aside. Amplifying then, it strikes me that reaction among elites, and in this I include, as Wolf does, business elites who have typically been pro-American in broad terms and certainly not leftist, outside of Europe has been quite similar.

Finally, Wolf argues – and I note that I agree with the argument – that the “transatlantic alliance cannot be sustained if the US remains dedicated to its current doctrines, except as a state of dependency on one side and mastery on the other. There are, instead, two alternatives. The first is a divorce, with abandonment of the institutions that bring the two sides of the Atlantic together. The second is a pragmatic partnership, in which the two sides work together in areas of common interest.” Very obviously I think this is true – I further note that this is precisely why I have found the frequent arguments about French, German and Russian ‘perfidy’ to have been so dangerous – as well as badly informed but that is another matter. I happen to know that among Wolfie et al’s bunch favorite readings are the Thucydides and specifically the Melian dialogue (See here http://www.hfienberg.com/irtheory/thucydides.html for an encapsulation), which in itself (in part) teaches that the powerful make the rules, as they like. In a larger context, however, one also can understand the a single hegemon acting in its own interest w/o regard for rules generates its own opposition. ‘Punishing’ France et al, for following their own interests and when one’s own case looks weaker and more fabricated daily, when one needs assistance in stumbling Iraqi and Afghani reconstruction efforts, as well as in combating resurgent and resilient al-Qaeda, as well as in trade policy and dealing with potential international financial crises….is short sighted and peevish, and likely to have negative consequences. (I do recall some simple recourse to simple models on game theory on punishment, but then I point that one on one models where we have multiple actors do not capture coalition building reaction)

Returning to Wolf, he notes that pragmatic partnership on shared interest is “approach advanced by a number of foreign policy thinkers, from both sides of the Atlantic, in a statement released at the end of last week.**”

Wolf notes that “if practical co-operation is to be achieved, much will depend on US behaviour. Tony Blair now plays a pivotal role. Should the credibility of his support for the US be destroyed, his country may range itself more closely alongside Europe’s principal powers. For the UK, too, is thoroughly Wilsonian. Should the US replace an Iraqi tyranny with enduring anarchy, as has happened in Afghanistan, or fail to alter the dynamics of the Arab-Israeli conflict, it will be hard even for this prime minister to support the US in further ventures.” Results matter, in other words, and I would further add, as Wolf has not, that the exaggeration of the Nuclear-Biological-Chemical threat has badly hurt US credibility to date, for the growing perception of outright lies (fed by the pre-war fabrication of the nuclear evidence) implies a degree of cynical untrustworthiness that does not encourage cooperation. An impression that feeds into a number of realms, including the economic.

Finally, I find the following analysis from Wolf dangerous, yet perhaps sadly correct. I say sadly for it implies decreased cooperation in key areas, such as global economic policy: “The US believes in unbridled freedom of action. Europeans believe in international rules. The US wants to transform the world. Europeans want to manage it. The difference reflects differences in power and in attitudes to its legitimate use. The transatlantic relationship is now a partnership of convenience. It is already no more than that for the US. Europeans should adopt a similarly utilitarian view. If they fail to do so, the amicable co-operation that is indispensable to both sides may become impossible.” Freedom of action, like freedom from foreign entanglements strikes me as a dangerous fantasy, a naïve belief all can be done single handedly or assembled ad hoc. The 19th and early 20 centuries are replete with examples of the “attraction” of such.

Wow, long post… I do agree with some of the opinions given here though, definately.

Although i’d have to say that what happens from here on in depends more on the US than Europe. Europe has stuck to its belief in multilateralism and international institutions like the UN thoughout. The US under the Bush administration has become sharply more unilateral.

Whether this will change when/if the Democrats take power in the US i don’t know. If the opinions i see expressed on this board are representative of American public opinion generally then there would seem to be a substantial amount of people who fully support the new style US foreign policy. Perhaps the US won’t become more supportive of international institutions and agreements until it is no longer the most powerful country…

Well, if it’s any comfort, you and he are not the only ones worried about this issue. The Chicago Council on Foreign Relations has been running a lecture series all spring titled “America as Empire? The Responsibilities and Risks of American Power.” Speakers for June will include the French Ambassador to the U.S. (I hope nobody heckles him) and a former French Prime Minister who is currently a visiting lecturer at the U. of C… just to name two.
My real question is: what can those of us who think this is needlessly stupid actually do about it? I swear, every day I have a greater urge to quit my job and become a real full-time activist, if only I thought I could pay the rent that way.

Isn’t there a danger that, in the heat of the moment, we’re reading too much into the current overcharged level of rhetoric? The neo-con flavour of policymaking in Wash DC might just turn out to be a passing fad - in a few years, we’ll look back on it and laugh. And the reaction against it in continental Europe will similarly seem a bit overblown in retrospect in due course?

I would like to believe that pluralistic, free societies ultimately share enough values not found elsewhere that they hang together at the end of the day. Their internal disagreements are a by-product of their culture of tolerance. But that culture separates them from the rest of the world.

We have a post-Cold War world, and the Germans aren’t going to bow to the US in the way they used to, and the French are going to opportunistically do what they can with that to make themselves feel good, oblivious to the fact that the rest of the world couldn’t care less. Russia will try and play the Euros off against the US insofar as they can.

But fast-forward a few years. You still have the “western world”, where people are free. And you still have totalitarian, theocratic, communist, fascist, etc, etc, regimes everywhere else. We’ll see (I predict) less simplistic bloody-mindedness in DC and more values-based thinking in Europe. The pendulums will be swinging in synch again.

Maybe I’m naive, I don’t know. But the idea that one part of the free world (the US) lurches off into some sort of egocentric, self-righteous hegemonism, while the other part (Europe) gets into bed with Muslim/commie/whatever tyrants seems far-fetched. Relax.

Perhaps, however real actions like wars, clear tensions and the like have real effects, more than just rhetoric, yes?

Well, the snipe at the French was gratitious and moderately inaccurate, but yes, indeed that is the world.

That leaves a rather large range of possible interactions.

I would hazard the informed opinion that Wolf was not raising a specter of Euro zone alliances with “tyrants” as you charmingly put it, but a break down in cooperation, with fall out in a variety of policy areas, such as in economic cooperation. Where does Doha go if there’s no trust on the durability of the multlateral framework, if one of the major actors has essentially ditched multilateralism for ad hoc coalition making and opportunistic bilaterals.

The interwar period illustrates that without warfare, breakdown in relations among the Western nations can have rather negative side effects, economically and politically. One should not assume cooperation on fuzzy ideas like ‘values’ – that’s partly what blind sided the Bush Administration.

In short, then, you’re posing a false contrast.

I do believe we’re going that way (divorce of some sort, maybe there’ll be alimoney, maybe there won’t).
I think a lot will depend on, as Wolf’s said it: the way they handle Iraq (hopefully better than they have so far), and who’ll be the next US president.
The sluggish US economy, plus fears over health, schooling and education, is not doing Bush Jr any good.
I think the fact that things are going bad at home, makes the Americans even more entrenched, as a result of which I think they’ll lash out even more (with or against us, no middle ground).

Wolf is right in saying that, 100 years ago and more, Europe behaved very imperialist, what with all the colonies and such, and the US was the “true” democracy. It is also true that Europe embraced those ideals after WWI, and that the US has become more and more like the old European states, with visions of grandeur. The statement “the US wants to transform the world (in their own image, I might add), Europe wants to manage it” kinda hits the nail on the head.
I have no idea what will happen, as I said, a lot will depend on how US will do economically in the next 2 years, + the next presidential elections.

But yes, I think Europe should strengthen ties with Middle East, Africa and Asia-Pacific, as US will only want a partnership on their terms, Slavery and mastercy, as Wolf put it, and Europe will never stand for that.

SO yes, a long, drawn out divorce, with cordial diplomatic relations on the surface, but more and more distrust underneath, is what I envisage (not that I’m a visionary…:slight_smile: )
Less economic transatlantic trade…

well, the NEw European countries will get a surge in economical growth, and both US and EU will fight for the best bits…but stil. Even Russia is now more inclined to side with Europe than with US

I think it’s utter bunk. The US is not behaving in an imperialistic manner: they’ve left but a token force in Afghanistan after ousting the Taleban and the war in Iraq was openly a war of liberation of the Iraqi people, against terrorism and WMD. The US does not intend to be there for long. As for Europe, the French, the Germans, and the Russians all had significant financial interests in keeping Saddam in power. All three have significant muslim populations too. France to the tune of $60Bn, IIRC.

States look after their citizens’ best interests. In America’s case it has been to safeguard them from terrorism; In the cases of France, Germany, and Russia, it has been financial.

I see no sign of the US wanting to transform the world. Historically, its interventions have been transitory - had they not bee, then America would rule the world.

It seems to me that the main problem was that Bush started going on about Iraq far too early, allowing Saddam to sow dissent. Instead of a month or so, Saddam had the best part of a year to prepare, and he totally outplayed Bush.

Mainland Europe is not strong militarily and so all it can do is talk. Look at the pathetic French intervention in The Ivory Coast and compare it with the British intervention in Sierra Leone. So they rest their hopes on diplomacy. This would be fine if everyone were gentlemen or ladies, but many of the world leaders are not.

We seem to have forgotten the old adage, ‘If you want peace, prepare for war’, to which I would add ‘and be prepared to use it’.

>>I think it’s utter bunk. The US is not behaving in an imperialistic manner:

I hate to think what you would consider to be imperialistic

>> the war in Iraq was openly a war of liberation of the Iraqi people,

Oh give me a break already. There are plenty of other peoples to liberate and the USA could not care less. The USA is after oil and strategig military bases. This fits the definition of imperialism to a tee.

>> against terrorism and WMD.

Yes? what terrorism? What WMDs? Where are they?

>> The US does not intend to be there for long.

I predict the USA will stay for a long time. It will keep military bases there and it is there to stay. Imperialism by any definition.

sailor, do you think it is equivalent to, say, the French history in Algeria or Vietnam, or perhaps the British in India? I think these examples more clearly fit our understanding of the term “imperialism”.

Collounsbury, interesting OP. There is undoubtedly a widening gulf between the European and American perspectives of the world, and how to deal with its problems. In the end, there is definitely an issue of the legitimacy (and this is not merely a neocon thing either - recall even Clinton had reservations about joining the ICC) of international institutions, from both moral and practical points of view. For now, the UK is acting as a sort of bridge between the two sides, straddling the fence between American unilateralism and European “internationalism” (I put “internationalism” in quotes because I am using it to represent faith in international institutions, which may end up resulting in an isolationist policy), and that is largely thanks to Blair, but who knows how long it will last?

I recently saw Francis Fukuyama, one of the top foreign policy scholars at Hopkins, and also one of the ideological founders of the neocon movement, give a talk about globalism after Sept 11. Most of the talk focused on the necessity of giving developing states a strong infrastructure and capacity to carry out public administration tasks, to avoid what happened in early-90’s Russia, but what interested me was his discussion of the growing divide between the US and Europe. He referred heavily to Robert Kagan’s now-famous article “Power and Weakness”, which sets out to show that the conflict is ideological in nature, and thus not easily solvable. As Fukuyama explained it, the Europeans believe that we are living essentially at the end of history (Fukuyama’s main work, which I happen to be reading at the moment, is called The End of History and the Last Man), where a democratic order is in place and international problems can be solved through democratic systems - courts rather than wars, and so on. The Americans tend to believe that there are real threats with which the international system is ill-equipped to deal; not everybody believes in the same ideals as the US and Europe, and the thought that we might change that through some kind of international law and order is naive. Some may attribute this view to Bush and his advisers, but I think it is more deeply ingrained in the American political ethos, going all the way back to the frontier society.

The question then, is not merely whose fault our current situation is, but also how can the relationship be improved in the future? While Wolf seems to fault the Americans almost exclusively, and his picture of the Americans is that they fault the Europeans exclusively, I hold that there is plenty of blame to go around on all sides. In many respects the US ought to conduct its diplomacy better, for instance attempting to resolve disagreements privately rather than having Rumsfeld insult Germany in a press conference. And indeed we could at least try to show we’re making an effort towards internationalizing the world, even if we don’t believe it’s already there (e.g. Bush should not have put the steel tariffs into effect, and at least should have submitted a modified version of the Kyoto treaty rather than rejecting it outright). On the other hand, Europe needs to be a bit more realistic about military issues; it’s not fair to gripe about the US being to militaristic and at the same time push them into the Balkans, which ideally should have been a European issue. Chirac’s threats against the Eastern European countries about aiding the US in the Iraq war were certainly not helpful. Although there is a deep ideological conflict being waged here, far deeper than the current administration, there are proper tools to manage that conflict, and neither side currently seems to be applying those tools. The Europeans and the Americans are both under threat from those who are totally opposed to everything they have in common, and to not take reasonable measures to strengthen our alliance in light of that threat is to ask for defeat.

Incidentally I meant to add that I disagree with Wolf’s apparent characterization of neoconservative foreign policy as imperialistic. If anything, I think it is moving us away from the closest we ever came to imperialism - the Kissinger policy of supporting “pro-American” leaders be they presidents, dictators, or anything in between (interestingly enough, Wolfowitz was one of the first to call for the US to end its support of the Shah). Even if you don’t agree with the means, I think adding some kind of moral direction (spreading democracy around the world) is an improvement in our foreign policy over the model we followed through much of the Cold War.

No. It might fit your understanding, but that would be a very limited understanding of imperialism. The Portuguese, for example, had a strong history in colonizing through creating economic dependencies.

Europe did not ‘push them into the Balkans’. And through membership in the OSCE, it is as much an American issue as a European one. Use of bases in a given geographic area makes you a player in the security of the area, like it or not. The Balkans issue is entirely uncomparable with the Iraq issue, except as a precedent for out-of-UN action. There are too many differences.

Problem is that Chirac made no such threats. He did not threaten a single one of them. What he stated was that Bulgaria and Romania might have done themselves a disfavor by aiding the US, since their accession to the EU is still subject to referendums in EU countries, and scoffing at the opinion of the public in those countries is a pretty good way to flunk those referendums. Above and beyond that, he merely pointed out that people who scorn the modus operandi of the EU are doubtfully fit to join it. He certainly wasn’t very diplomatic, but what he stated were simple facts. He made no threats of taking action against any one of them. His statements have been grossly distorted in the US press.

You assume that democracy is actually being spread. And you assume it’s a moral thing to do in the way it would be done if it currently is being done. But as history shows, lacking a democratic spirit -which takes a wee bit longer to take hold in a population than the term of office of a US president- people used to being lead by a strong leader will see for it that they are being lead by a strong leader. In a worst case scenario, which has already been observed in history, that can lead to the persecution and murder of what democratically minded people remain.

Well, let me rescue this from Oliver

On Imperialistic

Well, may I draw your collective attention (and this to our rather unlearned little qts as welll) my note in the OP regarding cutting the some slack. Wolf has a small space to make a point in.

In terms of Imperialism in the old classic sense, not it does not fit.

US behaviour does, however, fit with our past in Latin America, mid 19th century forward to 20th century. Quasi-colonial interventions to ensure friendly, pliable regimes and advantageous access to markets. what British Imperialism would have looked like no doubt had it not been in competition with rather more territorial ambitions of others.

As such, I believe we can dispose of the quibble about the phrase imperialistic on two grounds

(a) By analogy to British patterns, and to past American history and
(b) Somewhat loose common usage, approp. in the context of a brief article that needs to pack implciations into few words

US behaviour of late could be termed imperialistic. Nota Bene: imperial project of the neo-cons is the main usage found in Wolf, and it strikes me the New Century document can be frankly termed imperialistic on the grounds above.

Further:

Well, this may very well be true, and I will readily advance the observation that the Neo Cons policies can not find resonance in a vacuum. At the same time the Clinton era hedging on the ICC seems to me to have been very much driven by the loud objections of the traditional conservative and neo-con groups.

I personally see this as the result of a good 30 years of hard right hostility to international institutions, and the attendant agit prop.

Ah yes, Mr. End of History.

Nice sentiments, of course, but how does one “give” such states an infrastructure like that.

So Francis thinks the Europeans bought his decade old wrong-headed analysis?

I suppose that’s self-comforting. Perhaps there is partial truth to that, but it strikes me that as much the section of opinion that Wolf is portraying is not anti-war per se, but anti unilateralism for the (correctly) perceived destabilizing effects.

Rather different, in my opinion, that Fukuyama’s End of History

Bah, frontier society my ass. That’s simply recycling that old bankrupt analysis by… what is his name, Thompson? Escapes me.

As Wolf points out, it was an American idea, the Wilsonian concept, not a European one so calling this harkening back to fundamental American reactions is pure propaganda.

The distrust, it seems to me, arises from the late 1960s through 1970s experience when American policy makers partially lost control of the agenda, so to speak. The old isolationist crowd that never liked international engagement, along with the soon to be neo cons, turned on to an anti-Un, anti-internationalist campaign.

You should recall that Wolf is speaking from a particular POV, that is faulting the US for having alienated a normally pro-US segment of opinion and society.

I would hazard the opinion that the poor diplomacy – as you note re Rummy – had a rather large effect here, in combo with other factors.

On the last, true enough, although I believe the segment of opinion Wolf is addressing in re Europe is not that of the wanting it both ways.

Equally of course, the US seems to want it both ways on Euro military. More shouldering of the burden, as they say, but not independently o f the US. Perhaps more a Pentagon attitude than a general policy position until recently, it still rather appears self-contradictory. US position, as Wolf correctly notes, appears to want more support, yet deference at the same time. Doesn’t work that way.

No, they were ill timed and placed, although in a sense understandable.

Yes, although I do not think defeat per se is in the cards, unless we take that to mean lack of success.

Sailor

Britain has a long imperial history. The US is in no way similar.

No, I’m not going to give you a break. Liberation was explicitly stated to our troops by their leaders.

Let’s see… how about the financial assistance Saddam gave to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers? How about the suicide bomb belts found in a school? How about his sheltering of Abu Nidal, and the leader of the hijackers of the Achille Lauro? How about his gassing of the Kurds? How about the two mobile factories found scoured clean? How about the fact that Saddam ordered his troops to use WMD?

Your leaders have openly stated that they expect to only be there 1-2 years.

Collounsbury

Have a free clue: bullying and insults don’t work on me.

Simply holding a different opinion to you does not make me unlearned or incorrect. Your intolerance will not help convince others. Try disproving the points I’ve made instead.

I don’t think that the victims in Iraq would agree to that. Let’s not forget that wars have been started because of this.

Personally, I do agree with the divorce. Let’s make a pragmatic and strategic partnership and wait and see, time will bring new governments, wiser people and a better insight how this world can be run together. Then we can “re-marry”.

Finally there is a link to to letter written by American politicians (Madelaine Albright, Warren Christopher and others): “Renewing the Transatlantic Partnership”.

http://csis.org/europe/2003_May_14_JointDeclr.pdf

Hardly promoting terrorism. The effect is likely negligible compared to the IDF. It’s providing an incentive, not aiding terrorists.

Used in suicide attacks against invaders. Hardly terrorism.

Oh, dear. The fact that he kept people under house arrest which have committed terrorist acts decades ago is ‘promoting terrorism’?

Hasn’t happened since the last war.

No such thing has happened. Two trucks have been found that couldawouldashoulda been mobile factories if wishes were horses and the laws of nature would bow to Rumsfeld’s claims. Unfortunately, neither the scouring clean nor the concept of mobile factories are particularly plausible for anyone who has a modicum of background knowledge in the field.

And you have convincing proof that such orders were given, and if they were given, were not meant for the invaders to believe they were risking being exposed to WMDs?

Where are those WMDs?

Clearly lacking minimum background knowledge DOES make one unlearned.

Much of Latin America would substantively disagree with this. Interventions and ‘regime change’ – once rather more honestly called overthrowing a government – have a long history starting with our entanglements with Mexico, but getting up to speed in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

Every time period has its own specifics.

It’s difficult to parse this, but I presume if we put this in joined up English, that your statement should read, “The government made the explicit claim to US troops that they were ‘liberating’ Iraq, therefore they were liberating Iraq.”

Something of a bootstrap argument. We claim it, ergo it is true.

I really don’t believe that we are so stupid collectively to use this as an actual argument, so…

Assistance to families, or at least claims. Not actually funding the actual attacks. Of course, that’s an Israeli matter, not ours per se. – I do note that the obvious response all terrorism concerns us all the time implies involvement in a large number of conflicts which are not in the national interest.

Something again that is a bit hypocritically bootstrapping. After the war starts Iraq starts to use non-conventional warfare as part of self-defence. Hardly the same thing.

Abu Nidal had not been active for somewhat over a decade, and indeed you are doubtless aware Israeli authorities let him have contact as part of the Oslo-Madrid process. The man had renounced terror, so again, a stale and moldy accusation.

Well, aside from being a decade old, and internal to Iraq, it also was an issue of an army using the weapons against a populace. Brutal, awful, but not terrorism. Usage of NBCs as a military weapon by Saddam is not in question, but bringing up late 80s incidents to characterize current threat is rather pitiful.

Labs. Not factories, labs. Well, if one is reading the reports for comprehension one will note that (i) no independent confirmation yet as to what they were (ii) no traces of biological agents, but some traces of alum. residues, in keeping with Iraqi scientists char. of a mobile fuels lab. Likely a violation of UN prohib. on NBC weapons development, but that is not the same, once again as terrorism. Possible indication of a potential to develop NBC (well biologicals) but not yet confirmed. Given the number of false reports to date, I would advise against drawing conclusions.

I presume you mean in the latest combat. Confirmation on this? I am unaware this is a confirmed, as opposed to speculation.

Didn’t happen in any event.

Openly stated? Well, wonders be.

Nor apparently does knowledge either.

You’ve made a series of overheated half-informed claims, hardly a real argument at all.

I’m out of here. Everything I have stated is easily verifiable via Google or elsewhere. I see no point in discussing this with someone who is so blinkered and rude.

I think you confuse ‘claims someone made which support your opinion’ with ‘evidence’.

I’d certainly like to see the evidence that those trucks were mobile WMD factories.

And I do mean evidence. Not claims by someone that they were, but rather protocols used for detection of WMD components, and the results.

qts, I provide a helpful hint: catch up on what has really been happening (as opposed to the easily dispelled propaganda you recycled just now), or read up on the last months of discussion on these boards… we’ve covered all of this ground before (hence why sailor titled his response “not this again”).