Heinlein Books and Movies

First off, I’m going to do something bad: I’m going to respond to myself. Yes, I know, how gauche, how unapologetically declasse. Get over it. :stuck_out_tongue:

I talked about how movies can contain ideas; I feel I should follow that up with a clarification. The ideas that movies best address are those regarding human behavior: how we get into wars, or how we fall in love, or how we can engage in self-denial, that sort of thing. Movies are notably poor at exploring abstract ideas – things like squaring the circle, or the distribution of load-bearing members in a tall building, or the relative ethics of cloning. They can be covered in documentaries and training films, but for the genre we’re talking about – fiction, specifically the adaptation of Heinlein’s fiction – those sorts of concepts are notoriously difficult to cover. When Heinlein talks about an individual’s debt and responsibility to society, that can form the foundation of a movie, by setting up various characters as examples and counterexamples and letting the system run. But when he’s just creating a loopy timeline, or exploring the impact of technology on macroeconomic systems… well, I wouldn’t want to be the screenwriter who tackles that one. Human-oriented ideas are easy; abstract or external ideas are not. (Compare Dune: The Messiah-complex material translated easily to film; the ecosystem stuff did not.)

Now, other questions:

dhanson:

This idea isn’t unique to Heinlein. There are several theories of story construction; most come up with eight or ten basic storylines. Robert McKee, in his very influential writing guide Story, lists about twenty.

sdimbert:

Maybe she just didn’t care. Tom Wolfe, for example, is famous for selling off the rights to his books, and never looking back. He knows the movie will be vastly different, and will probably stink; he doesn’t feel he needs to waste his time worrying about it. Partly this is because movies in general don’t impact his worldview all that much: He just signs the contract and cashes the check, and he might, maybe, find out the movie actually was made and released if a friend tells him. Sort of like me and, oh, say, UK rugby standings. Really important to some people; not even a flicker on my radar.

Surgoshan:

I think this is true of good science fiction in general, not just Heinlein. Asimov and others have said over and over again that the whole point of doing what they do is to take the human experience and extrapolate it into a new setting or social dynamic. Anything else is just engineering. Movies, unfortunately, tend to forget this, and get seduced by the special effects. There’s a really good movie bouncing around inside James Cameron’s The Abyss, for example, but he unfortunately gets sidetracked a bit too much by the hardware, I think. Compare Blade Runner, and its examination of what really makes people human. We don’t need to know how Replicants are made; we just accept that this is a future in which they exist, and let the thematic exploration proceed.

sdimbert again:

:smiley:

Copyright law on this point is fairly clear. You can write whatever you want for your own personal use; you can adapt Heinlein’s TEFL or Bradbury’s R is for Rocket or, though I’d question your sanity for wanting to do so, Grisham’s Runaway Jury if you really wanted to, as long as the script stayed in your desk drawer and was solely for your personal enjoyment. The minute you want to actually represent that script to another reader whether for sale or for any other purpose, though, you’d better have permission from the copyright holder (i.e. the original author, or whoever bought the rights, or in Heinlein’s case the administrator of his estate) or you get in big, big trouble. You could certainly pen a script, and then have a literary agent or lawyer contact Virginia with a formal proposal: “I’d like to do this; here’s a brief description of my take on the material. If you’re interested, let’s discuss financial terms, an option agreement, etc.” Once the agreement is in place, you can then have your agent begin representing the script in the marketplace, but not before.

But again, if you want to write the script yourself, and not do anything else with it, you’re free to do so. I’ve been toying with the idea of writing up Timothy Zahn’s Deadman Switch purely as an exercise; it’s got a great hook, and a great third-act twist, and I think with some condensing and shuffling a truly crackerjack sci-fi adventure could come out of it. I don’t hold out hopes of actually being able to sell it; I’d just do it as an exercise, to see how good I am at taking 300 pages and 80,000 words and condensing them down to 120 pages and 12,000 words.

By the way, if you look at those numbers again, you see another major problem with adapting Heinlein: He’s just so damn prolific. Most of his books (that I’ve read, anyway) tend to the long side, and defy easy compression. More than one screenwriter has stated that the best source material for a movie is actually a short story, rather than a novel: Look at Stand By Me and Shawshank Redemption, both rather elegantly reworked from Stephen King’s shorter-than-average originals. There’s a lot of potential material out there, from the stories in Ben Bova’s Challenges to the stuff by Benford and Brin and the “Future On…” books edited by Card; but because short stories don’t land on best-seller lists, they don’t automatically come with “heat,” i.e. awareness and buzz that makes for an easy sale.

That’s just marketing, though. The original point – and yes, I did have one – is still valid: The length and structure of shorter stories (e.g. Greg Bear’s Heads) is more conducive to screen adaptation than from longer novels (e.g. Moving Mars by the same author).


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Now, other questions:
Good opint, C-Man. But I need to pick a nit: I don’t think Heinlein really ever “just” did anything when he wrote. OK - hang on… I’m going to exclude the juvie stuff and some of his more senile pieces. But, for the most part, his long fiction is profound.

But, none of it is about “abstract ideas.” Look back at the examples you gave. Squaring a circle? RAH didn’t write anything like that! His fiction is about “Human oriented ideas!”

R :smiley: O :smiley: F :smiley: L :smiley: M :smiley: A :smiley: O :D!!

Once again, you’ve hit the proverbial nail right on its proverbial little head. Most of what I consider to be “good” movies seem to be getting longer and longer. I remember when I was surprised that a movie took longer than 2 hours… now its standard. I think it occurs because, as moviemakers get better at using technological wowies to tell a story well, then discover more complicated pieces to include in their stories.

The word you’re looking for is “novella.”

I would also toss out Total Recall based on We Can Remember It For You Wholesale as an example - feature-length film born from short story.

To return to the main point (and yes, I have one too!), I would reiterate that the difficulty seems (to me) not to lie in Heinlein’s choice of subject matter, but the simple depth of it. Surgoshan’s point is valid: Heinlein’s books are just so goddammned deep. If you need to condense it down to feature-length, you need to take out something… and some fan somewhere is bound to disagree with your editorial choices. Too bad.

(BTW, that’s why I think that Time Enough For Love would make a great series of films - there is too much there for 2.5 hours, but it would make for a kick-ass trilogy!)

OK, I know there is going to be little originality in this post. Forgive me.

When I read a book, I take days or weeks to do it. Its ideas can sit in my head for a long time as I see them gradually explored in the book. This is at least half the fun. Movies don’t have that luxury. You have two, two and a half hours tops to get your message across while also being entertaining, making money, etc etc etc. Movies that do manage to get a thoughtful point across well are vanishingly rare. There’s just no satisfying way to bridge this gap. You have to either start with a book that is short on substance to begin with, or shred a good book to get the small part you want.
Another good example, IMHO, are the Tom Clancy novels. Amazingly intricate plots are ripped to pieces and maybe 10% of the story gets told in the movie. (See Clear and Present Danger. Wait, let me rephrase that. Don’t see it if you’ve ever read the book.) FWIW.

And finally: Crichton (sp?) is to science what Grisham is to law. Bad bad bad. Must be stopped. He has a few original ideas, give him credit for that, but writes on about a fifth grade level.

Sorry about resurrecting an old thread, but I wanted to comment on it at the time, and wasn’t registered.

I’m surprised that little mention was made of Destination Moon, and none of Operation Moonbase. Heinlein wrote the scripts for both. That they have not aged well suggests just how difficult it is to adapt Heinlein to the screen. Destination Moon gets written off as slow and boring, while Operation Moonbase was used in an episode of MST3K.

They’re both worth a second look, or a first if you haven’t seen them (both are available on videotape, an maybe DVD by now). Destination Moon is interesting both in its accuracy and its inaccuracies, but it is particularly cute in view of the ongoing debate over space-based missile defence. Heinlein came to favor SDI, and you can see in DM that he was in favor of it in the early '50s.

Operation Moonbase makes you cringe at times, but it has a lot of cute touches – telephones with no wires between handset and main unit, a space station with zero G, the first astronaut to the moon being a woman, and a female president of the U.S. The film was apparently supposed to be a TV series, but it never got aired.

Sorry about resurrecting an old thread, but I wanted to comment on it at the time, and wasn’t registered.

I’m surprised that little mention was made of Destination Moon, and none of Operation Moonbase. Heinlein wrote the scripts for both. That they have not aged well suggests just how difficult it is to adapt Heinlein to the screen. Destination Moon gets written off as slow and boring, while Operation Moonbase was used in an episode of MST3K.

They’re both worth a second look, or a first if you haven’t seen them (both are available on videotape, an maybe DVD by now). Destination Moon is interesting both in its accuracy and its inaccuracies, but it is particularly cute in view of the ongoing debate over space-based missile defence. Heinlein came to favor SDI, and you can see in DM that he was in favor of it in the early '50s.

Operation Moonbase makes you cringe at times, but it has a lot of cute touches – telephones with no wires between handset and main unit, a space station with zero G, the first astronaut to the moon being a woman, and a female president of the U.S. The film was apparently supposed to be a TV series, but it never got aired.

Someone mentioned the Dreamworks buy up of the rights for * The Moon is a Harsh Mistress * … well I had the priviledge of having a 10 minute conversation with Spider Robinson outside the Vancouver public libary (the big Colliseum downtown) about Robert A. Heinlein movies … he was optimistic for the Moon is a Harsh Mistress and believed that they would do a good job of it …

Not that he may have any additional insights into how the movie will be made … but I was to hire a script consultant on a Heinlein novel, I doubt I could do better than Spider Robinson. I have been lucky enough to have had a number of conversations with both him and William Gibson (one of the many many advantages of living out here!) and I would trust him on Heinlein movies … however, I will wait and see (still can’t bring myself to watch Puppet Masters … I love the book so that I fear I may loose it during the movie and kill someone).

Fascinating thread, and I for one am glad it got reopened. Manny, please let it live…it’s a perennial.

Irishman and sdimbert (among several others), outstanding comments. But from the perspective of someone who was around and reading Heinlein when Stranger came out, let me comment that the remark:

is well described by its last line. Not because the poster who wrote it is full of the same. But because, to quote one of Spider Robinson’s characters, “he has the historical sense of the average tree shrew.”

In 1960, there was no “hippy-dippy New Age crapola.” Outside of some very small fringe sects in Southern California, America was pretty thoroughly Left It to Beaver. You had those radical left-wing types from NYC and Hahvahd that Didn’t Understand the Menace of Communism and the Need to Protect the American Way of Life.

And we all believed it, more or less.

Heinlein wrote that story not to, for heaven’s sake, push the “water-brother” mysticism as an “alternative lifestyle” (another phrase that would have been anachronistic) but to ask questions about the sacred cows of the American Way of Life.

Did he succeed? So much so that you read it as typical of the next decade, rather than having paved the way for it. That book may have been the single work that most restructured Western civilization – possibly an exaggeration, but not totally without cause.

If you doubt my word on this, look up the chapter “Echoes from Stranger” in Heinlein’s posthomous letters collection Grumbles from the Grave. He says precisely what he was trying to do with the novel in one long letter in that chapter.

As for “Starship Troopers” I think I have to disagree with everybody. I suspect the adaptation was vetted by Virginia, and approved. Like her late husband, she understands the distinction between screenplay and novel. And while there are some parts of the movie that don’t “work” – e.g., the mercy-killing – I personally think that the movie attempted to do precisely what Heinlein wanted the book to do – serious philosophical insight into the ethics of good citizenship carried on the back of a shoot-em-up adventure story – by adapting the theme to 1990s screen format. It was not a perfect job; nothing ever is. But it carried the point Heinlein was going for as well as any movie could.

As for Destination Moon, well, it’s dated. It was not the world’s finest characterization story – the plotline was what was supposed to carry it. Today that is old hat – but in 1950 it was far-out speculation. As well criticize a Chaplin film for inadequate use of dialogue.

::: Poly does his grumpy old senior citizen routine, hobbling away muttering under his breath something about “young whippersnappers” :::

Polycarp:

Appreciate the entry. I suspect I might be older than you, though. I liked SIASL and almost all Heinlein, for that matter (except “Number of the Beast”. Yech.)But I gots ta disagree with you on the movie version of ST. It didn’t Carry the Theme in the 90’s. It was diametrically opposed to Heinlein’s theme. It’s not a matter of not being perfect – the movie is so contrary to the book in so many ways that it’s almost an entirely different beast. I doubt if Virginia H. vetted it. On the other hand, she might have after giving up all hope of anything faitful. Read Heinlein’s own comments on adapting “Destination Moon” to the big screen (published in Astounding when the film came out, later reprinted in the book “Focus on the Science Fiction Film”. Also revealing is the questionnaire Heinlein filled out for that book – laconic and unbeleivably sparse. Campbell, Clarke, Asimov, and others wrote essays on their opinions. Heinlein by this time clearly didn’t want anything to do with Hollywood. He’d been through Destination Moon and Operation Moonbase, and that must have been enough.

I still think he’d have hated the movie. See my comments in the current “Starship Troopers” thread.

Interesting coincidence that this thread resurfaced when it did, and I wandered back into the board. I just picked up Stranger to reread it, for various other reasons.