Helmet laws

The BBQ Pit
101

EvilGhandi – both of us can pull up statistics to support our points of view… but let me just give you my reason for saying what I did.

I’ve been in two motorcycle wreaks. I have walked away from both of them because I was properly clothed; one of the drivers I was with almost died because he did NOT have his helmet on. It was a really clear, in your face, kind of lesson.

No, I don’t believe in nor do I support helmet laws; you are free to make the call on your level of personal safety just as I am. I don’t drive my car without my seatbelt on. I don’t ride a motorcycle without the proper gear. This is JUST ME. As far as instituting laws regarding FORCING everyone to buckle up or helmet your head, I don’t support them. I’m sorry if they have infringed on your freedom; I am not personally responsible for this. As far as I’m concerned, please, ride without one. Clean up the gene pool.

Best!
Byz

102

Why so upset about a helmet law? Already you got a seat belt law, it was just a matter of time if you ask me. Remember that being able to operate a vehicle on city roads is considered by your state to be a privelidge not a right. Your vehicle must be registered and licensed, and have the proper, functioning equipment to be able to use on roads. I myself ride, have for 9 years, sometimes with a helmet, sometimes without. If they make it mandatory in my state I will have to use it all the time then. If there is anything to complain about, its the greedy insurance companies… one would think that when insurance laws were passed, premiums would go down, I mean way down, or at least based soley on your personal driving record. With these vehicle saftey laws, insurance should be dirt cheap in my opinion, but thats another whole debate.

By the way, its been my experience during riding that I have managed to avoid at least half a dozen accidents, which would have been caused by the OTHER driver in the car/van who just didn’t see me or ignored me. The only thing that saved me was me. Some drivers out there really need to be more aware.

“Wow! Spider-Man! Are you really friends with the X-men?”
"Not since Cyclops tried to use my viewmaster."
(Marvel Team Up #1)

103

Two words: Mandatory sidecars

Hell is Other People.

104

Spiney Norman,

A quick re-read of the post directly above yours will answer your question.

47% Of motorcycle fatalities were wearing helmets in the study I quoted.

Byz,

You say you can quote statistics to support your point of veiw, why dont you?

You then go on to say you didn’t arrive at your decision by looking at figures. Rather, you state your choice was the result of personal experience. Your “you can’t tell me not to wear one either” stance matches mine.

Fine, I found myself nodding in agreement with you until your last paragraph.

Where do you get off taking that patronizing tone? I live in a no helmet state, no one is infringing on my freedom. Not even you. And that crack about the gene pool?, glass houses baby.

Neobican,

There is no law requiring seatbelts on bikes. Nor are there laws requiring auto drivers to wear helmets, even though they contribute thousands more head injuries per year than bikers to the totals. That tired “priveledge not right” crap really burns me. I hear it every time the government decides to make law. You may be unaware of this, but public opinion does come into play in the law making process. So right or no, I and my riding bretheren DO have a say in what becomes law. I say we pass a one that requires all motorists to wear em, then we will see the “not a right” robots start to change position.

So, to answer your question, “Why so upset about a helmet law?” It’s because we don’t like them. We contest the rationale behind them and we suspect the motives for passing them.

I fully agree with you on the awareness thing. Every single time I have bit pavement it was because a blissfully unaware driver forced it.

As a closing note, It seems to be a common sense issue, that is, wearing a helmet. After all, having something between the road and your head has to be a good thing, right?

Unfortunately it’s more complicated than that. They don’t seem to have any significant impact on survival in a crash. The benefits they do provide may well be outweighed by the drawbacks. The only fair solution in my opinion is to let the rider decide.

105

Evil, what I meant by my statistics comment is that statistics can easily be skewed to support all most any point of view. I don’t base my personal choices on statistics. That is all I meant by that comment.

Yes, we do agree on wanting to set our own levels of personal safety.

Last paragraph? Yes, it was really bitchy and catty and out of line. I was trying to be funny and it came off very badly. I apologize.

And again, yes, I agree with you: Let the rider decide.

Best!
Byz

106

Aww gee Byz,

Your gracious reply makes me feel bad for jumping on you in the first place. Kill em with kindness, works every time.

107

Extends hand of friendship, clasps your hand, offers you a beer.

Hey, grab your bike and head on over to the guy stuff thread in MPSIMS… there’s a huge party at my house. I have a feeling it’s gonna get pretty wild so you just might WANT to grab a helmet! :wink:

Best!
Byz

108

This type of behavior will not be tollerated in the pit. Please stop it right now.

I really should stay out of this… but since my last post got Evil to come up with a PSA about Nun Bowling I’ve just gotta see what we can get from this. I really liked the idea by the way.

You keep posting 47% of the deaths were wearing helmets. We’ve already noted that several people wear helmets due to laws, pressure from loved ones, or whatever (I won’t say common sense… that would be too easy). Can we assume that more riders wear helmets than not? (aw… who cares how you answer… this is MY silly made up response). We’ve also noted that helmets are more restrictive, so probably more people wearing helmets get into accidents. We can agree to that can’t we? (yeah right… like I care how you respond)

So, in my really scientific study that I just can’t seem to find the source for, but I know it’s true. There were 35,000 people involved in motorcycle accidents last year. Of those, 25,000 were wearing helmets and 10,000 were not. Of those wearing helmets, 20,300 lived and 4,700 died. Of those without helmets, 4,700 lived and 5,300 died.

So you are right… 47% of those who died were wearing helmets. Of course only 18% of those who had accidents while wearing helmets died versus 53% of those not wearing helmets.

Truth is… I don’t really have a strong opinion on helmet laws. I just hate to see statistics without all of the facts thrown about to try to add support to an arguement.

(Plus, I really love to pour a little gasoline on a fire.) Can we figure out the percentage of Nuns killed by expelled passengers not wearing seatbelts versus those killed by motorcycles?

109

Sorry Spud,

The numbers you claim to “know are true” are just a load of crap. Not a small load mind you, a hot steaming load.

Snippet of your post,

“There were 35,000 people involved in motorcycle accidents last year. Of those, 25,000 were wearing helmets and 10,000 were not. Of those wearing helmets, 20,300 lived and 4,700 died. Of those without helmets, 4,700 lived and 5,300 died.”

A quick bit of addition of your “official” statistics places motorcycle fatalities at 10000 over a year. Or (by your stats) something close to 29% of all motorcycle accidents resulting in fatalities.

Wrong, the actual figure is closer to 2.9%. Also your total number of fatalities yearly is off as well, by around 7900.

Since you couldn’t even get the totals correct, your data diferentiating between helmeted and unhelmeted riders is also suspect. Even more so since it requires nearly 8000 additional riders die than actually did. Not something most bikers would be willing to do to back up your ficticious study.

Nice try, but if you are going to bullshit your way through something, come up with figures from this planet.

110

Not the brightest bulb in the fixture are you Evil…

I thought it was obvious from my post that the figures are made up. The point that you seem to miss is that without the additional information your statistic of 47% means absolutely nothing. Feel free to post the actual figures… just make sure you include all of the information necessary to make a valid conclusion. I just picked some nice easy round numbers so someone not too sharp could follow the math… guess I over estimated your abilities.

111

I’m a 40 watt? You post imaginary numbers in an attempt to rebut my real stats. Numbers that inflate the actual impact to an absurd level while ignoring any real data. This makes a point? how? That some people make up figures to support their position? This is a known fact, I didn’t need you to illustrate it by posting wildly innacurate information.

Since we are trading insults, You weren’t the captain of your debate team in high school, were ya?

112

As far as actual numbers go,

During the period of compulsory helmet laws in Colorado, fatalities *increased<i/> by .01%. Whatever the reason for this increase, be it an increase in total number of accidents caused by helmet use or a hiccup in the overall ridership of bikes, it does tend to negate your survival ratio.

Really though, it is difficult coming up with stats to dispute imaginary figures.

113

OK… I’ll type this really slow so maybe you can keep up.

I’m not trying to support either side of the helmet laws debate. I am trying to illustrate to you that the statistic you keep using is totally meaningless. I could have just as easily skewed the numbers the other way, but I thought this would make a better point.

And Evil… I’m sure you really are a very nice Ghandi. I rarely get down to the pit, and I figured a little gratuitous name calling was required here.

114

Damn html.

I forgot to mention, Helmet law states average .08% higher fatalities per crash than non-compulsory states. Not sure what this means, but I am sure it disputes your helmet/non-helmet fatality fabrication.

My sources are the NHTSA and the Motorcycle Saftey Foundation. Both are decidely pro-helmet organizations.

115

Spud,

Heck yea, what kind of debate doesn’t have the word “fuckstick” in it? A boring one. And no, I am the anti Ghandi. Like the goatee sporting “evil Spock”, I am the polar opposite of the Wise one. Much more comfortable in a knife fight than a hunger strike.

116

Point Zero Eight Percent is a pretty small variance. Maybe these state have a lower level of emergency care than the others. Or maybe they just have more pointy rocks along the roads.

The statistic that would be meaningful would be the comparison of survival rates in accidents where a helmet was worn versus the survival rate where they were not.

117

Uh,

The difference between the states was cumpulsory helmet use. I found it safe to assume that such states would have a higher percentage of helmeted riders.

118

Here are 3 articles presented by the nhtsa concerning helmet use.

Do helmets interfere?
www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/outreach/traftech/pub/tt127.pdf

Crash Outcome Data Evaluation System (CODES) report to congress (real long)
www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/ncsa/codes/codesrpt.pdf

Further CODES study
www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/ncsa/codes_mc.html

These report have plenty-o-data for you to argue about.

119

You know what they say about making assumptions.

I could assume that those who chose to not comply in a compusory state are more likely to indulge in other risky behaviors and therefore get into more accidents. I may also assume that more of these folks die and that coupled with the states lousy medical care and high abundance of pointy rocks bumped the percentage up that tiny bit.

You know I’m just dying to use some absurdly high made up numbers to illustrate this, but staistics show you should piss off evil Ghandis 75% less often than the good ones.

120

One thing that I have noticed is that I ride like a fucking idiot when I am wearing full gear (HELMET), and I ride like I’m filming a “how to ride responsibly” video when I’m not wearing a helmet (usually, anyway).
I think that I must put a little too much faith in that helmet (it’s not even DOT approved, which it must be to be worn legally in NC), and I can imagine others doing the same.
And, since we’re in the pit and that was a bit too civil – fuck you, you fucking fucks.