Help bust my linux cherry!

Factual Questions
1

Ok, time to get it overwith… I have had several customers come through with trashed O/S’s on older machines and no windows disks, or no XP licence stickers so I can’t do a legal install. Many of these are starving college students and older folks that just picked up a pII300 at a garage sale for $25 and want to get on the internet but obviously don’t want to spring for a $100 copy of XP that would run like crap anyway.

I would like to learn the basics of Linux or some other unix variant that is:

A: able to be installed by someone with minimal Linux knowhow or comes with install instructions in english a basically PC saavy person can follow despite knowing jack dilly crap about Linux.

B: Is a graphical user interface that a minmally skilled end user can still point and click to open apps if installed for them.

C: Is of course free or beggarware. I don’t mind kicking in a donation any time I install it but I can’t really afford to stock something I will have to pay money for with a minimal return on investment since the vast majority of my clients use windows 2K or XP.

D: isn’t going to balk at commonly distributed DSL and broadband hardware.

Any other wisdom or pointers will of course be highly appreciated.

2

I’ll declare a vested interest as I work for the parent company, but I’ll start the ball rolling with Open SuSE 10.1, just released last week. The only wrinkle is that there’s a package of proprietary software you’d want to download separately from the same site and install afterwards; I understand this is due to legal reasons.

3

I like Ubuntu, and it has gotten some very good press recently. Installing it shouldn’t be a problem and it doesn’t ship with proprietary stuff like OpenSuSE does. It should run more than acceptably on any machine capable of running Windows XP (The last 486s and Pentium Pros are dead, right? If you find any, put them out of our misery.) and it is very much a graphical system. It should turn a somewhat aging (as opposed to ‘bought when the Web was a new idea’) Pentium system into a fine Internet machine.

4

Another vote for Ubuntu. It’s become just about as easy to install as Suse, Mandriva etc., and in my experience runs much better on slower machines.

5

Ubuntu is a very user-friendly distribution and probably offers the most comfortable transition for people coming from a Windows background.
On the technical side, it’s a bit weird (but don’t let this put you off) - I have just come back from a SuSE Linux administration course to find that the method of working in Ubuntu is quite different; the root account is disabled and administrative stuff is performed using sudo, which I’m sure is fine, but just doesn’t seem right after having the whole ‘su to root’ thing drummed into you day and night.

But yes, if you’re looking for a linux distribution that is easy to install and will provide a windows-esque environment with web browser, email client, instant messaging and office suite, Ubuntu is the best choice. IMO.

6

Here’s the thread I started on getting Linux tips last year. One problem you’ll probably run into, is that Linux isn’t always the easiest thing to install programs on. Sometimes it’s easier than Windows, other times, it’s a royal PITA. Still, it’s more secure than Windows, immune from spyware and viruses, and free, so it’s definately got it’s pluses. There’s also several good Linux mags out there that have CDs/DVDs bundled with each issue that have some flavor of Linux and lots of apps on them, and they’re filled with tips and resources, which is handy to have.

7

As I’ve said in a bunch of Linux threads, if you’re looking to kick Linux’s tires, use a LiveCD. Ubuntu (Debian-based) and Knoppix (which I thought was RedHat-based, but also appears to be Debian-based) are the most common to my knowledge. As the name implies, they boot directly from the CD, so that your system doesn’t change – obviously, they’ll run slowly, but it’s should be a painless way to try Linux out.

If you’re looking to really delve into the system as a personal learning exercise (build lots of stuff from source code, get into the nuts and bolts, and end up with an optimized system), try installing Gentoo or Linux from Scratch. I have to say that I’m partial to Debian myself, as the apt (and synaptic) package management is great. Fedora has yum, which seems to have caught up in functionality with apt (there are other things that I don’t like about Fedora, however). For people that aren’t familiar with Linux, an easy to use package manager is key.

8

I’m a bit unclear on the OP - are you wanting to pick up Linux to learn on your own? Or are you planning on installing it for the starving students and senior citizens?

If it’s the latter, I’d have to say that I think you’re doing them a disservice. An unexperience computer user is going to have troubles down the line with a *nix box. Not only are you shutting them out of the majority of commercial software, but there’s also support issues and learning curves. Say what you will about Windows, but the amount of on-line and in-person support & learning tools out there for Windows boxes is huge.

9

That’s a good point, Athena; Linux is a very robust and highly capable OS and with some effort, it’s even possible to coerce it to run many Windows apps, but unless the goal here is to simply provide a box that does internet, mail and office stuff such as word processing and spreadsheets (plus maybe desktop games such as solitaire etc), it’s going to be a major headache.
If the recipients have any absolutely-Windows-specific requirements (such as using MS Access or Visual Basic, for example), they’re going to be stuffed.

10

Of course if the goal is to provide nice, non-extensible one-box solutions to email/web/office needs, I would actually recommend something like Ubuntu Linux in preference to Windows, simply because it is generally more robust and secure in operation.
In the hands of a typical user, this time next year, a Linux workstation is likely to be operating the same as today, whereas a Windows workstation will probably have generated support calls for virus/spyware infections and application errors.

Don’t get me wrong; I’m about as dyed-in-the-wool-Windows dependent as they come, but I will freely admit that Linux, once working, typically continues to work, whereas Windows requires maintenance.

11

I was thinking of situations where down the line the person buys a digital camera, which comes with Windows software. Or they want to play that new game everyone is playing. Or their grandchildren come over with their new Dora the Explorer software. Or their Online Basketweaving class at school requires them to use the latest MS Basketweaving.NET software that’s only available on Windows.

Sure, there’s ways around some of these things, but unexperienced users is going to have more trouble getting *nix to do what they want it to do than if they’d just had a Windows box to begin with.

12

[QUOTE=Athena]
I’m a bit unclear on the OP - are you wanting to pick up Linux to learn on your own? Or are you planning on installing it for the starving students and senior citizens?
[/quote]
Both but its going to be a while, I’m going to set one up for myself and fiddle for a while before I go trying for someone else.

Point taken, this is going to be more about creating a basic internet machine basic, apps etc. Customers would be informed of the potential conflicts and compatibility issues and part of my spin up time will be digging for apps and such.

Are there any common brands of peripherals that are particularly good about supporting *nix or will pretty much any major brand name have drivers and such available even if they have to be d/l’d from the web.

Any well known major brands that steadfastly refuse to support *nix or work so poorly as to be not worth buying?

13

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
I have just come back from a SuSE Linux administration course to find that the method of working in Ubuntu is quite different; the root account is disabled and administrative stuff is performed using sudo, which I’m sure is fine, but just doesn’t seem right after having the whole ‘su to root’ thing drummed into you day and night.
[/QUOTE]
Mac OS X does the same thing (root is disabled, sudo to perform administrative tasks) and after a period of adjustment I found that I like that so much that I’ve changed over the Red Hat Linux machines I administrate at work to the same setup and am working on making the IRIX and Solaris boxes do the same. A side benefit, if you’re trying to create an audit trail, is that sudo will log all commands, whereas su will just log the access.

[QUOTE=Tuckerfan]
Still, it’s more secure than Windows, immune from spyware and viruses, and free, so it’s definately got it’s pluses. There’s also several good Linux mags out there that have CDs/DVDs bundled with each issue that have some flavor of Linux and lots of apps on them, and they’re filled with tips and resources, which is handy to have.
[/QUOTE]
Point of note: Linux and *nix operating systems aren’t immune to spyware and viruses–there have been some major security exploits in Unix server systems in years past–but modern *nix systems are much tighter, access and authentication-wise, by design and because the desktop user market, even after taking into account OS X, is but a fraction of the much more easily exploited Winders OSs, all the script kiddies and marketeers go after Windows systems. *nix users in general tend to be somewhat more savvy about security and authentication, and with major Linux/FreeBSD/Baskin-Robbin’s Featured Flavor of Unix servers, admins are (supposed to be) constantly logging access and patching any potential holes. But this isn’t to say that some clever wank won’t figure out a major, undiscovered hole in the 2.6 kernel or a utility exploit in SSH or somesuch and bring Google, Amazon, or a cascading series of backbone servers crashing down.

There are a thundering herd of Linux distros, but if you go to distrowatch.com and peruse the first dozen entries or so you’ll get a feel for the major (and generally most easy to configure) distros. There’s also a great book called How Linux Works that is an excellent introduction for a *nix neophyte to the underpinnings of Linux. And if you want to try it out, or check out a system and see if I’ll configure and run (especially important with the proprietary hardware often used in laptops, even name-brand ones) you can get and burn to CD a bootable Linux or FreeBSD OS (Ubuntu, Knoppix/Gnoppix, and FreeSBIE are all bootable distros).

Good luck with this, and don’t get discouraged by the learning curve. Once you get some basic system knowledge down it comes…well, not much easier, but somewhat easier. At least you know where to look.

Stranger

14

[QUOTE=drachillix]
Are there any common brands of peripherals that are particularly good about supporting *nix or will pretty much any major brand name have drivers and such available even if they have to be d/l’d from the web.

Any well known major brands that steadfastly refuse to support *nix or work so poorly as to be not worth buying?
[/QUOTE]
It seems to work the other way around, that the drivers come from (or are at least circulated by) the linux community and the various companies releasing the distributions. If your main hardware is between six months and five years old, most common distributions will support it out of the box; if it’s outside of that range in either direction, it can be a problem.

15

I should have previewed…
[QUOTE=Athena]
I was thinking of situations where down the line the person buys a digital camera, which comes with Windows software. Or they want to play that new game everyone is playing. Or their grandchildren come over with their new Dora the Explorer software. Or their Online Basketweaving class at school requires them to use the latest MS Basketweaving.NET software that’s only available on Windows.

Sure, there’s ways around some of these things, but unexperienced users is going to have more trouble getting *nix to do what they want it to do than if they’d just had a Windows box to begin with.
[/QUOTE]
sigh I can’t argue with this, but it is exactly this mentality that allows Microsoft to continue charging so much for their mediocre OS with its poorly documented, closed source APIs and its major security flaws.

[QUOTE=drachillix]
Are there any common brands of peripherals that are particularly good about supporting *nix or will pretty much any major brand name have drivers and such available even if they have to be d/l’d from the web.

Any well known major brands that steadfastly refuse to support *nix or work so poorly as to be not worth buying?
[/QUOTE]
Support for Linux by hardware vendors varies from lackadasical through apathetic to outright refusal. Keyboards and mice shouldn’t be a problem, you shouldn’t have much issue with name-brand printers, and I think most standard non-CE based PDAs can be readily accessed by Linux apps, but things like digital cameras, dive computers, and other non-standard appliances may be tricky; someone may have written a driver to obtain at least limited access to the information, but often not, so you need to search around on-line and see what you can find, or learn to write device drivers yourself. (This isn’t all that difficult but its definitely time consuming, especially when you have to figure out the protocols by trial-and-error.)

Fortunately, most network appliances like routers and wireless access points now have web-based configuration which doesn’t care what OS you’re running. Perhaps in the future vendors will be savvy enough to embed a compact, minimalist web server into their products which can interface via HTTP over a TCP/IP or USB connection with any computer regardless of OS or support drivers. That’s the dream, anyway.

Stranger

16

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
On the technical side, [Ubuntu]'s a bit weird
[/quote]
Well, it’s a Debian-based distro. SuSE isn’t.

If you really need a root shell, say ‘sudo su’ or ‘sudo bash’ (or whatever shell you use). Usually, you don’t. IME.

Name one piece of spyware that has successfully infected a *nix system. Here is a good page on the general issue of malware under Linux.

Holes are discovered and patched. This is in contrast to the Windows model, where holes are merely discovered. :wink:

The biggest problem you will have with hardware is modems for people still on dial-up. I think external modems are best, but if that is utterly undoable there are people trying to get those incomplete-by-design Winmodems to work under Linux.

17

[QUOTE=Derleth]
Well, it’s a Debian-based distro. SuSE isn’t.
[/quote]
Fair enough.

As I understand it, they’ve actually locked the root account in Ubuntu - although I understand it can be fairly easily unlocked.

I’m not complaining, it just seemed a bit of a step away from the norm.

18

I like Ubuntu myself, but I haven’t run it with a graphical interface really, so I can’t say how that would impress people.

I like what Digital Stimulus said. If you have a half-decent machine you don’t want to nuke the OS on, try a Live CD (but expect it to be slowish). apt is also the coolest thing to hit the command line; upgrading and installing software becomes a single-line “apt-get” command.

My only problems with it have been hardware support based - it’s difficult to get my webcams working since the makers only have Windows based drivers, and they won’t release specs so anyone else can support it for them. Task-wise though, that machine does 10x what I’d be able to get a Microsoft-running machine to do on my network.

19

[QUOTE=Nanoda]
I like what Digital Stimulus said. If you have a half-decent machine you don’t want to nuke the OS on, try a Live CD (but expect it to be slowish).
[/quote]
I have Ubuntu installed dual-boot on this machine with Windows XP; the installer will take care of downsizing the Windows partition to make room, but apparently there can be big problems if you try it without first defragmenting, and especially if it’s an NTFS volume, as NTFS support in Linux is (or was, last I checked) a bit shaky.
The installer also takes care of setting up a GRUB menu that offers the choice of which OS to boot into. However, I just applied a load of update patches to Ubuntu the other day and rebooted only to find that the GRUB menu now didn’t include the Windows boot option, so I had to manually edit /boot/grub/menu.lst to put it back.

Better still (at least from the POV of Windows users), if you run Ubuntu with a graphical desktop, you get Synaptic Package Manager - an excellent GUI front end for apt-get that adds the ability to browse and search available packages by name or description.

20

[QUOTE=Mangetout]
I have Ubuntu installed dual-boot on this machine with Windows XP; the installer will take care of downsizing the Windows partition to make room, but apparently there can be big problems if you try it without first defragmenting, and especially if it’s an NTFS volume, as NTFS support in Linux is (or was, last I checked) a bit shaky.
[/quote]
NTFS is a bit shaky under Linux. Read support works well, but write support still isn’t there yet. These things come with time.

Indeed. The presence of apt-get has made running dpkg manually unnecessary, and the presence of Synaptic has made some instances of running apt-get manually unnecessary.

Debian is older. SuSE and Red Hat are a step away from the norm. :wink: