Help ID these guns (and swords)

Factual Questions
1

Here is the story… a co-worker of my wife was painting their kitchen… while moving a loose ceiling tile they noticed an opening to the sofet (sp) above the cabinets. In there they found 4 guns and two swords (sabers). They bought the house several years ago from a relative who knew nothing about them, but remember the previous owners had several “safes” in the closets, and the house was sold because the husband died. My guess is these were gun safes, and he had a fairly good sized gun collection… but why were these hidden rather than locked up?

I’m going from one 4x6 photo, so don’t have much to work from, but am going over tonight to look for markings etc.

One is easy… it is a Japanese rifle model 38 or later. The thing that is different from what I normally find is that the sling mounts are on the side rather than the bottom. Likely a souvenier from WWII.

The three other “rifles” are all percussion caps. One has a short stock and an octaginal barrel. One is an over/under, and the third appears to be a long stock with a round barrel. The over/under, and the long stock both have a very distinctive butt. The top extends about 4 inches above the sholder and appears to have a metal wrap from the top all the way around to the trigger guard.

One “sword” appears to be a an M1840 or M1850 US saber with a leather wrap handle. I know there isn’t much else that can be told without markings.

The other appears to be German or similar region. It has a very large “P” guard. The thing I’m not at all familiar with is attached to the scabard… it appears to be two leather straps about 16" long that end in a leather wrapped ball of some sort.

I’m sorry I don’t have a scanner to enter the picture, but will try to take some digital pictures tonight. Any general info though would be appreciated. I’ve done several google searches, but with 2,500 or so matches it is hard to narrow down a good site.

2

Holly cow! You may have had quite the find. I will attempt to help you out once you post some photos.

3

Photos!

Please, please, please!

I’m salivating at the oportunity to slap my dead-lights on your treasure! Man, but I’m jealous of your luck!

4

Got to see them last night, and they are in very good condition considering the likely age. I took about 14 pictures, but don’t have anywhere to post them. If anyone wants to help out, let me know and I can e-mail them… even better, if someone would post them for me.

Anyway, the Japanese gun is much what I expected, and with the markings I can nail that one down. It is a model 99 without the monopod. It is from the Kokura Army Arsenal, serial number 80713 (fairly late). Probably in the $150-300 range. (still not bad for finding it in your ceiling). That is probably the cheapie in the bunch.

I’ve got some ideas on the sabres, and I’ll try to post more tomorrow. Here are a couple of links that look close but not exact. http://www.antiqueswords.com/bq261.htm and http://www.antiqueswords.com/bq177.htm

The black power guns were much more interseting, and in very good condition for their age. There were very few markings except for one… that one was by far the most interesting. It is an over/under with a full steel barrel, with about a 44 cal rifle on top, and around a 12 guage shotgun on bottom. The maker appears to be J. Sacket, and the location is worn, but the last is …eagertown. Below that is “FA.”

The one that I thought was the long stock with a round barrel turned out to be an octagonal barrel after all. It was a single barrel, but there were two triggers. I don’t know much about muzzle loaders, but I don’t know why the two triggers.

I haven’t had much luck in finding sites to ID the percussion cap guns, so if anyone has any good ideas, please point me in the right direction.

5

Nice links!

Try setting up a page on Geocities.Com.

6

Thanks Tranquilis… never hurts to teach an old dog a new trick every now and then.

Here are a few to start the hunt. Now that I’ve gotten my feet wet, I’ll see what I can do to post some more.

http://www.geocities.com/p_doss/foundguns.html

Thanks again

7

The two-trigger system is called a “set trigger”.

Under normal use, say hunting, one simply pulls the primary trigger, which provides, say, a few pound trigger pull.

For fine target use, one pulls the secondary trigger first, which “sets” the lockwork- sort of like partially pulling the main trigger.

Then, to fire it, one pulls the primary trigger, but instead of a relatively long trigger pull, it’s typically very short and very light. Great for target use, but too sensitive for hunting or day-to-day carrying.

It’s not terribly common, but it has been around as a concept for a long time.

8

Thanks Doc… Does that do anything to help narrow down the dates or location for this gun? I’ll admit that I’m running blind on most of these. I really thought I’d find some markings that would set me on the right track.

Here are the notes I took on this gun. As I said, it is a full/long stock with an octagonal barrel probably about 38-40 caliber. There is some leaf type ingraving on the hammer area. The left side of the butt has some interesting carving that I can only describe as a “cheek rest.” It is raised above the rest of the stock, so wasn’t carved in as an after thought.

The only possible marking I could make out on the breach was “WA” or “WS”, but this was much like looking at clouds and seeing things.

The butt of the stock has a brass (?) cover that extends out about 2 inches above the shoulder.

The only other thing of note I could fine is the front sight that appears to have a different metal “blade” set into the barrel, with 4 “crosses” stamped into the the surounding area (two on each side).

Thanks for any help you can provide.

9

Tranquilis… you have created a monster… soon I’ll have pages of the most recent family vacations for all to enjoy.

Here is the next page of “butt shots” (I bet I’ll get more hits on this page).
http://www.geocities.com/p_doss/foundguns2.html

Thanks everyone again.

10

Oh God…

[sup]I’m sorry, folks…[/sup]

11

Nice shots. I’m out of my depth on the muzzle-loaders, but I’ll route a couple of knowledgeable friends to your site. Cute caption on page two…

12

Sorry I can’t be of more help. I’m a cartridge-arms guy. :smiley:

I looked at your photos, but I’m sorry, nothing’s ringing any bells. I just don’t know the blackpowder stuff that well.

I think I can give you some pointers, though. If they’re authentic- by no means certain- there’s a few things to look for.

Any lettering will be engraved, or possibly hand-stamped for a somewhat more recent piece. “Phillips head” screws are a dead giveaway of a reproduction. Brass pieces, such as trigger guards, are typically cast and finished.

Look closely at pieces like the hammer and trigger- if you can see circular “milling” marks, it’s very likely a reproduction. (Though it could well be just a reproduction part for the gun.) Most of the steel should show faint forging marks- in other words, somebody whanged it out of a piece of hot steel. I’m sorry I can’t describe it further, but to a trained eye, it’s relatively obvious, the difference between a fabricated part (machined and ground) and a forged part (beaten to shape and hand-filed to finish.)

The dual-caliber piece has me intrigued… can you tell if it’s a fabricated barrel or not? In other words, does it look like two seperate tubes were welded or soldered together, or does it look like it was forged from a single piece?

One-piece multi-caliber barrels like that are called “drillings”, a colloquial term. Rifle-over-shotgun is common, as is two different rifle calibers, such as one .30-ish cal high-velocity and a heavier such as a .460, for African big-game hunting.

I have to admit, though, that I’ve never heard of a blackpowder multi-caliber… I couldn’t see in the pictures, I assume it’s a left-and-right lock?

In any case, a more modern reproduction arm, even as recent as the beginning of the century, would have a “proof mark” on the barrel somewhere. Lack of same is not definitive proof, but it is a clue.

I’m not anywhere near certain, but I believe caps replaced flintlocks in at least the early 1800s, so they could well be over 150 years old. But, without seeing them up close- and even then, I’m no expert- they could also be 30-year old reproductions. I can think of at least two manufacturers of “kit” type blackpowder arms who have been making do-it-yourself sets since the forties.

Let us know what you find out.

13

Looks like we are in similar boats… my black powder knowlege is limited at best.

It is possible they are reproductions, but if so they don’t have any of the obvious signs. There were no obvious mill marks, and everything appears to be forged. There also seems to be quite a bit of “aging” in that the engraving that is present is quite worn, especially around the hammer workings… this would make me think that if they were later works they were still frequently used.

The over/under does appear to be made from one piece, and yes it does have a right and left hammer. I didn’t look too carefully where the two barrels come together though because there is a “push rod” (I’m sure that isn’t the correct term, but you know what I mean) mounted on each side where the two barrels come together. I was hesitant to move them because the metal at the ends appeared to be very thin and worn… I didn’t want to cause any damage. I think you can see the rods in question (but not the wear) in the pic of the barrel ends.

There were no phillips head screws either… one, I think the short stock, did have some interesting screws though… it was a regular flat head, but there were notches comming in from the outside. They weren’t deep enough to be used for tighening, so I don’t know if they were for decoration or as some type of guage.

14

Spud,

My name is Alan Gower and I found your posts way back from 2001 about some percussion cap rifles and sabers you found in a home. I’m particularly interested in the one made by Jacob Sackett from Saegertown, PA. I am a descendent of Jacob and have been trying to track down anything he made. A month or so ago, I made a website with information about Jacob on it… you can find it here: http://jacobsackett.wordpress.com

Anyways, I am wondering if you still have pictures of that rifle and if the rifle is still in your possession. If it is, would you consider selling it to me?

I hope this finds you… I tried a few times to get a hold of you on The Firing Line Forum, but never had any success.

15

Whoa, cool!

16

Spud was active as of 3/25, so it’s a good chance he may see this.

I sent him a PM to drop back in here and see what’s what.

17

SHIT! None of the links work, anymore! WTF?!

18

Yeah what terrible planning to not ensure that links work 12 years after they’re set up :wink:

I must say the best part about this thread was using geocities for photo hosting. Oh 2001 what a wild time you were.

19

This is my favorite typo of the week. Represent!

20

Thanks everyone for viewing my site… I began my research about three years ago and I came across Spud’s original message on another forum back in December 2010 and have been trying to figure out how to get a hold of him until I found this forum that he also posted on. So I’m just playing the waiting game now.