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I’m not transgendered so I probably shouldn’t speak for them, but my impression is that the point of using the correct pronoun is mostly as a sign of acknowledgement and respect for their identity. As long as you make a good attempt, which by asking for their preferences you clearly are, I doubt that they will be offended any more than you would be offended by someone who mispronounced your name they met you. At worst they will correct you.
The problem is people who disrespect them by actively ignoring their expressed preferences.
I’m with the Zap Gun For Hire on this one. I was at a convention which made it very clear that it was a safe space. A presenter was doing a demonstration with a Van De Graaff generator. One of the volunteers was in multiple layers of costuming. You could see their face, but it was very unclear what gender they were presenting as or identfied as. The presenter asked for their pronouns the same way SNL’s Master Thespian would ask for his line. The volunteer cheerfully supplied their preferred pronoun. That was the end of it. We all learned a lot about static electricity that day too.
Right - I said I intended no disrespect if I inadvertently used the wrong pronoun. But I felt a little foolish when I realized pronouns weren’t what I needed, but personal title.
That’ll be fine on paper, but how is Mx pronounced when speaking?
Google says either Mix or Throatwarbler Mangrove.
It’s pronounced “mix”. Like Ms is pronounced “miz”
Well, someone I know just came out as nonbinary, and while it doesn’t change anything about how I feel about her, I am mildly confused.
They are the adult child of a longtime friend of my wife’s. In their 40s, they retired from the military and posted on FB that they were coming out as nonbinary and used the pronouns they/them.
Like I said before, I really don’t care, other than that if it makes them more comfortable on the infrequent occasions that I see them that I use those pronouns, I certainly will. Our relations are primarily w/ their father - we only see the younger person once every year or 2.
But I wonder why a person would feel the need to come out publicly like this? I’m wondering who DOES care? They ARE pretty prominent in their field, so I guess pronouns might come up in their professional life. But they are extremely capable, such that what they say/do stands on its own whether it is from a he/she/or they. I would assume their closest friends and family already know - or could be informed less publicly.
As a pretty casual - tho longtime - acquaintance, I had always felt this person somewhat out of the ordinary. Never heard about a SO or anything. If anything, they had sorta impressed me as asexual - but I really don’t give much of any thought as to who my friends’ kids are boinking. This person continues to use a traditional female name and presents themselves with a female appearance.
Not a huge deal, as it may be some time before I see them or their father. And I can’t imagine the situation in which this is the first topic I bring up in conversation. But I found my reaction to be primarily confusion, and you guys are often good at helping me dispel that.
Not to be snarky — honest! — but: they do. It means a lot to them; they care a great deal; and I figure the least we can do is note that it means a lot to them, and that they mean a lot to us.
And, at that: I’m not non-binary. And, well, I say so, publicly. Why wouldn’t they do the same, albeit by doing the opposite?
Gender is largely about our public presentation and how we interact with others. If you want people to recognize that you are enby, you have to tell them. Especially if you have a female body, since women-in-men’s-clothing is common and unremarkable.
Is this how you feel about gay people? If it isn’t, I’m sure you’re aware that lots of people say this kind of thing about gay people. Does that seem different to you?
Well - yes and no. If I am interacting w/ someone by themself, without any SO, I really don’t care if they are gay or not. If they have a rainbow bumper sticker or something, I’ll file that away, but it doesn’t likely change how I interact with or think of them. Won’t make me raise/avoid “gay” topics or anything. If I am talking with them and they refer to a same gender SO, again, I’ll just file it away, but I hope they are romantically satisfied and that their family unit is healthy and happy. And if I encounter them with their partner, I just treat the partner as a partner - of whatever gender/orientation.
I’m not a HUGE fan of big PDAs - whatever the gender of the parties. So I guess I mildly disfavor flamboyance. But again, whatever makes them happy.
So if someone is bi. Or polyamorous. I’m not sure how terribly relevant or important that is to anyone other than their current or prospective romantic partners, or their immediate friends/family whom they might wish to know and support their choices. I just don’t understand the urge to make it public knowledge.
In no way am I saying this person ought not proclaim their nonbinary status from the rooftops. People announce far more information publicly than I personally would. I’m just trying to understand the mindset - which seems so different from mine.
I guess I generally think that nearly everyone I encounter - outside of my closest circle - doesn’t really give a shit about me. And they CERTAINLY don’t care about my sexual/gender orientation.
I know I have the ease of being in the traditional majority, but it doesn’t matter to me whether someone “recognizes” me as a man, or just a human being who ought to be interacted with the same as any other human being in whatever situation I am. I consider myself male, but I do not care whether someone calls me he, they, hey you, etc.
Is it because enby folk have traditionally been so much in the minority, and dissed by some, that they feel it all the more important to proclaim their identity?
Do you think no one cares whether you are a man or a woman? Do people sometimes call you “he” and other times call you “she”? Do you have a preference?
I think you’ve identified a significant factor here, namely: I think that what you’ve said is a minority perspective. You seem to me to be a person with a very small circle, and you don’t much care what happens outside of it! I absolutely do not mean that as any kind of insult! I tend to be the same way. I find managing a wide social circle exhausting. (It’s not because I’m cold or lack empathy, just the opposite. I’ve got more than I can comfortably manage.) People are just wired differently in terms of how many people they care about and how much they care about them.
But back on point - for a great many people, the great work of living is to be known and acknowledged by other people. To say “this is who I am” and be received with love and affirmation by a community. I believe this is integral to the fulfilling “human experience” of many if not most humans, and one’s gender identity is (again, for most but not all people) a very important part of who we are.
That’s why it’s important for some folks to make it known.
If nothing else, coming out publicly, or at least to the group of people with whom you hold enough mutual acknowledgement on Facebook, helps to normalize their gender expression to a wider audience.
So maybe if you’re sitting around and you hear some hateful rhetoric complaining about how all non-cis-gendered, non-hetero people are Awful and Must Be Persecuted and Erased and Marginalized, you can think to yourself “now, I know [this non-binary person] and I think they’re swell and don’t want them to have anything like that happen to them.” Maybe not you, but maybe someone else who has never given a thought to such topics because they have been living in a cis-het bubble.
People like to say that non-binary gender et al is a “new fad” and “in the old days, nobody was non-binary or trans.” Well that’s not true. People like this have always existed but consequences for expressing themselves as they wanted were steep. Now people can come out and feel support, and those who don’t support them can go perish in space.
It’s the same reason Fred Rogers invited Francois Clemmons to share a wading pool with him. To let all the kids know that there’s no reason to not be friends with Black people, regardless of what rhetoric you hear to the contrary.
Not every non-cis, non-hetro person has the obligation to announce themselves publicly. But when and if they do decide to, it’s not only beneficial to them but can be wildly beneficial to society at large.
Functionally, there really isn’t a difference - they both describe people who don’t have a strong gender requirement in people they’re attracted to. There is, however, a self-evident absurdity in referring to yourself as a “non-binary bisexual,” which led to the adoption of “pansexual” as an alternative term. It has since spread beyond the NB community to people who wanted to be inclusive of people who don’t fit the traditional gender norms.
This gets a little thorny, though, because there’s a large group of people out there who identify as bisexual, and have spent decades defending the validity of bisexuality as an identity. And most of them are also fine with dating trans or NB people, and don’t appreciate the implication that being bisexual means they’re anti-trans. “Pan means open to all genders, bi means just two,” has been the source of a lot of shouting in the queer community.
I think also with the current political climate there may be an interest in promoting visibility and solidarity. So as to tell people, “Hey, you know those laws your hearing about? They aren’t directed as some faceless deviant, they are directed at people like me!”
No - I’m sure people identify me as a man. A tall, older man with resting bitch face. But the number of situations in which I CARE how someone perceives me is quite small. If I’m in a store, I just want the staff to view me as a customer. Couldn’t care less if they gave me a gendered pronoun - or the “correct” one. If I’m playing music, I just want people to perceive me as the bassist/banjo player - not a male bassist. I want cow-orkers to just view me as competent at my job - and to do their own damn jobs. And I want my friends and family just to view me as Dinsdale.
I’m not enby, but I would think if I DIDN’T want people to be viewed as - say - female, one start would be to not consistently present myself as female appearing.
Yeah - this I don’t get. If I wanted ANY recognition, it would be that I have been a good partner/parent, I’ve been relatively self sufficient (acknowledging the advantages I was born with), and that I was a decent companion in various social situations.
I know I come across as some asocial curmudgeon on these boards. But I have a group of 7-10 guys I play golf with every Sunday (weather permitting) - and we’ve done so for over 30 years. I have a groups of 10-15 people I play music with every Saturday - for the past 10 years. As well as a string quartet that meets weekly, and a 3-piece stringband I play and perform with at least 1x weekly. Other than my wife, kids, siblings, nieces and nephews, and fewer than 10 other social friends/acquaintances, that’s really about all the people I really care about one way or another. I’d be perfectly happy to be invisible to anyone outside this circle. And I don’t expect them to care about me either.
I wonder how much different it would have been to interact with my golf buddies or music friends if I perceived my gender differently. I would be surprised if my friends would really care - but that may well be my ignorance speaking.
This makes sense.