Gender identy: What does it mean to "feel like" a man/woman?

Great Debates
1

All right, I was going to post this in GQ, but I thought it it would generate too many opinions. And I also thought it might be “too deep” for IMHO, so I’m posting it in GD instead. Hopefully it doesn’t end up getting move to the Pit…

I have heard it said over and over again that gender identity is NOT the same as sexual preference. In fact, the two terms may be completely unrelated. Since enough people have told me this, it must be true.

And yet…

Speaking just from my own personal experience, my gender identity is, and always has been, inextricably linked to my sexual preference. I’m a guy. How do I know that I am a guy? Well, because I have a penis and I want to have sex with women. What does it feel like to be a guy? Well, as a guy, I feel like having sex with women.

Too simplistic? Let me elaborate. I am not, by any stretch of the imagination a stereotypically “macho” man. I have very little body hair (yeah, I know – TMI. Deal with it). I am extremely sensitive both to other people’s feelings and their cristicisms. I cry easily (especially at sad movies). I’m very artistic. I’m lousy at directions. Etc., etc., etc. My wife, in fact, jokes that, personality-wise, I am more of a girl than she is. And yet, I never feel like I am a woman trapped in a man’s body, for the simple reason that I am attracted to women, not men. If I ever found myself attracted to men, I might suspect that I was, in fact, trans-gendered and not “simply” gay. But I am firmly attracted to women and therefore remain steadfast in asserting my masculinity.

And so I ask: When people talk about “gender identity” as a concept wholly apart from sexual prefernce, what exactly does that mean? Once you ignore the fact that you are attracted to a particular gender, what does it mean to say that you “feel like” a man or a woman?

I’m assuming, btw, that it’s not something as simple as a desire to wear clothing traditionally associated with a particular gender, since that is based more on customs and societal norms than it is on genetics.

Regards,

Barry

2

Make that “Gender identity.”

sigh

3

I don’t know how useful this’ll be to you, but I’ve never gotten the concept of gender identity on a visceral level at all. I mean, I know what plumbing I have, but I don’t feel that it has much to do with my personality. Certainly I don’t want it to have much to do with my personality.

My plumbing forms very little at all of my self-image.
Daniel

4

Well, I suppose it brings up a related question. When somebody says they feel like an “x” trapped in a the body of a “y,” what do they actually mean? I don’t really feel gender identity on a “visceral” level, either, and the only way I think I would ever “feel” like a woman instead of a man is if I found myself sexually atracted to men. Except that feeling that way would mean I’m gay, not transgendered.

So the question remains, what does it mean to “feel like” a man or a woman if you take away sexual preferences? Or is it only something you’re aware of in those cases where things are screwed up? Maybe as a man I’ll never understand what it means to “feel like” a man, but if I suffered sexual dysphoria (sp?) I’d sure as hell know what it meant to “feel like” a woman trapped in a man’s body?

Barry

5

Beats me. Personally, I’ve never understood transsexuals – not because my own “gender identity” is so strong that I can’t empathize with them, but because I have so little that I can’t imagine someone wishing to go through major surgery because of it.

It’s my experience that people without major gender issues are often better “adjusted” and more intelligent than average. Conclude what you will.

6

If it helps, the etymological meaning of “gender” seems to be switching over from one of function to one of personal identity. It’s hard to identify the source of this shift, although I’d ascribe it to the efforts of the transgendered community, combined with the rest of the world having never thought about the question and being unsure how to deal with it.

The term “gender” per se largely deals with a matter of function: it’s what the gender identity is meant to do, and therefore, technically would be a concept separate from the sex organs. Dictionary.com is telling me that it means

You’ve probably seen the gender concept used before in, of all places, hardware stores. For example, the part of a pipe fitting that screws in is considered “male,” while the one that receives the fitting is called “female.” (Unless I’m getting them backward.) The like concept has been applied to human beings: men are considered, as a matter of function, male, and women are considered female. As I said, they’re separate concepts, but only until recently were they considered inseparable.

The gender notion appears to be shifting, although how dictionaries and the law will ultimately view them is far from settled. There’s efforts out there to have the term “gender” redefined as a matter of identity, and therefore, more flexible than previously thought. The area where this will have the biggest potential impact is in the law. An example would be a 2002 case out of Missouri, In re Gardinier, in which IIRC, a male-to-female wife of a dead man sued for a declaration that she was a legal woman and therefore entitled to inherit under the state’s intestacy laws. The case went up to the Missouri Supreme Court, who ultimately held that gender and sex are inseparable–denying her the inheritance, of course.

This could easily change in 10 or 20 years, and the case might have turned out completely different if it had been in, say, California. Again, where this is going isn’t clear, but it’ll make for some interesting courtroom drama and philosophical discussion over the next few decades.

7

I really like to stand up and pee. It’s a big deal. When I am ouside, in the yard or in the woods, or something, I like to aim at things. I can’t imagine not being able to do this.

8

Aim at things… like… the dog? Moving targets are more exciting.

Anyway, I doubt that there is any satisfiactory answer to the OP. Gender identity must be either defined subjectively, as a very personal experience that others will not experience or understand, or objectively, as having a certain percentage of certain bits and pieces. I don’t think either definition is useful.

-C

9

I don’t know how to explain how I know that I’m a woman. I just know that I am. This knowledge has nothing to do with my genitals or who I have sex with. I don’t think it’s possible for someone who is not transgendered to truly understand what it is like to be transgendered.

godzillatemple, your construction of gender implies that gay men are either female or some gender other than either male or female. I think you will find that most gay men identify as male, and that most lesbians identify as female, which either means that most gay men and women are confused, or your construction is wrong.

ResIpsaLoquitor, that case was in Kansas, not Missouri. And the spelling is “Gardiner”. That case supports my thesis that transsexuals are legally whichever sex would be least convenient to them in the instance, without much regard to consistency or fairness.

10

I believe it’s something to do with short skirts and men’s shirts.

11

If you’re trying to say that transsexuals are less intelligent than average, you have successfully offended a rather substantial group of extremely intelligent people.

12

I’m assuming from your post that you are transgendered and that you started off life with a penis? If you don’t mind me asking, are you attracted to men?

Barry

13

godzillatemple, I’m a lesbian. The idea of having sex with a man is revolting to me.

14

I really think that issues of gender identity are such that, if you have to ask the question, you’re not really likely to understand the answer. It’s something that’s almost impossible to adequately explain to someone who doesn’t already understand it at a visceral level.

I’m a woman, not because I have a vagina and breasts, not because I like to have sex with men, but because I just am. It’s what feels good and natural and right to me. If I were somehow transplanted into a male body, I wouldn’t just shrug my shoulders and go look for some cute gay guys to have sex with. That body would feel all wrong to me. It wouldn’t make any real difference in the way I dress, or how socially acceptable my hobbies are, or even really in the way I wear my hair. It just would feel all wrong, and I think it would slowly drive me crazy.

The lesbians I know are all women, not because they have breasts and vaginas, but because they feel like women. Sexual orientation certainly has nothing to do with it, because they like other women. If they suddenly had male bodies instead of female, they wouldn’t just shrug and go cruising for chicks, for the same reasons I listed above.

Then, of course, there’s the issue of gay transgendered people. I can think of at least one Doper off the top of my head who was born male and with the desire to have sex with women, but who was transgendered. I’m not sure if she’s pre-op or post-op at the moment, but she’s a lesbian. For her, gender identity had nothing to do with what genitals she was born with, or who she wanted to have sex with; it was all a matter of what felt natural and right to her.

I’m probably not doing a very good job of explaining it, but maybe some of our transfolks can stop in and do a better job.

15

And I see Kelly’s already beaten me to the punch. Never mind.

16

Well, I can tell you that I am definitely a person with a FAT BUTT trapped in a really skinny body.

There are some things you can read (if you’re so inclined) that might give you a closer look at how transgendered people might feel. Even though it’s not exactly on topic (It’s about a boy whose doc tried to convince him via surgery and clothing that he was a girl because of a circumcision mishap) the book, “As Nature Made Him” presents an interesting look at the topic.

If you take a little boy and make him look and dress like a little girl, it doesn’t necessarily follow that he will FEEL like a little girl. In fact, the subject of the book was suicidal…it was a horrible experience for him and he describes how this felt very well. He didn’t identify with the girls who were supposed to be his peers. And that was WAY before he developed sexual longing.

When I read that, I sort of thought it must be similar for transgendered people…that their clothes and physical attributes don’t really make them into a particular gender. And the (only!) transgendered friend I have verifies feeling like a well before “sexual preference” was a phrase he understood.

I never think of men who have traditionally “feminine” traits as having anything to do with these arguments because WE have determined that certain traits are feminine or masculine. I mean, sensitive men who cry at movies may be the NATURAL norm…we don’t know since it’s so societally frowned upon.

17

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CrazyCatLady *
I really think that issues of gender identity are such that, if you have to ask the question, you’re not really likely to understand the answer. It’s something that’s almost impossible to adequately explain to someone who doesn’t already understand it at a visceral level.

[quote]

Why do I get the feeling that only those who are transgendered can understand what it means to “really” feel like a man or a woman?

Whether you believe me or not, I really don’t mean to be disrepectful. It’s just that I really don’t have any visceral inherent sense of being a man otehr than the two examples I cited above (having a penis and being attreacted to women). Does this mean that I have no gender identity? Or does it mean that the whole concept of “gender identity” is just a cover to explain a desire to experience life as the opposite sex?

I do not doubt that transgendered individuals really and truly feel that they are in the “wrong” body; sex-change operations are not trivial things that somebody would undergo without a pressing need. But I really have trouble grasping the concept of “gender identity,” and you’d think it would be something that everybody (not just the transgendered) would be able to inuitively grasp.

To put it another way, yes, I have a penis and yes, I like women. Therefore, I “feel like” a man. However, if I were to wake up one day with a vagina and an attraction toward men, I’m pretty sure I would “feel” like a woman instead (albeit a stunningly ugly one). I just don’t understand what the “visceral” feeling I’m supposed to have that tells me I’m a guy.

Barry

18

Actually, I’ve been playing with the idea of “coming out” in some fashion on the board, since there seem to be enough transsexual folks here that maybe I could do so without so much risk of coopting them and they’d be free enough to speak in here to let me have it if I offend them or if they have questions, etc etc…

I’m male, I’m attracted to females sexually, and yet I’ve felt all my life that “one of the guys” was certainly not who I was, that I belonged over there ::points to the girls:: and I can sure relate to the whole phenomenon of feeling “born in the wrong body”. I don’t like being thought of as one of those ::points to the boys:: or misapprehended as being one of them. And in particular when I’m feeling sexual feelings about one of them ::points to the girls:: I don’t want them to think of me as one of those ::points to the boys again::

OK, now to really muddy the waters: I don’t really mind the body itself. I’ve certainly daydreamed a lot about waking up some morning to discover myself female, and wondered what it would be like, but I don’t look at my own body and hate it for being wrong or anything. It isn’t alien to me, I’ve been in it my whole life and it’s me, it’s who I am. It’s just that there are more than two genders. Some people like to describe straight male, gay male, straight female, and gay female as four different genders. There are obviously more than four. Maybe there are straight male boys and straight male girls, gay male boys and gay male girls, straight female girls and straight female boys, gay female girls and gay female boys, that’s eight?

Really, I don’t think you can map it. I doubt there’s an objective identity “it” out there that individuals discover themselves on, so much as you have a body and you have a culture which interprets it, and then you engage with those interpretations and embrace some pieces and argue against others, and that matrix and how you express and internalize it becomes a part of you. In most cases, a part of you that is of central identity-importance, although I’ve known of at least a few people who don’t seem to have the same centrality of emotional investment in sexual and gender identity.

Anyway: to the transsexual folks on board, hello from another person with overlapping experiences. I’d love to be able to talk about it and share and compare notes – something I’ve simply never done with anyone who could say “you too?” – and I hope the differences that make me “not quite one of you” are not, and are not expressed here, in a fashion that you find offensive.

19

I was ignored before, but it looks like my analysis played itself out marvelously. People want to accept the subjective definition of gender identity. That’s fine, transgender people, but then people who don’t experience it will only ever lend credence to your theories as much as they want to defer to your subjective conclusions. That’s fine for day-to-day life, maybe, but when it comes to law, medicine, and other disciplines that favor the subjective, you might find yourself in trouble.

-C

20

Maximum C, I suspect that, in due time, an objective test for gender (based on neuroanatomy) will eventually be possible. However, for now the subjective test is the only one we have. Amazingly enough, it seems to work pretty well at identifying and treating gender dysphoria.

Medicine already accepts this, and the law is starting to come around.

And I think you meant “objective” instead of “subjective” in your last statement.