Gender identy: What does it mean to "feel like" a man/woman?

Great Debates
21

Actually, I’ve been playing with the idea of “coming out” in some fashion on the board, since there seem to be enough transsexual folks here that maybe I could do so without so much risk of coopting them and they’d be free enough to speak in here to let me have it if I offend them or if they have questions, etc etc…

I’m male, I’m attracted to females sexually, and yet I’ve felt all my life that “one of the guys” was certainly not who I was, that I belonged over there ::points to the girls:: and I can sure relate to the whole phenomenon of feeling “born in the wrong body”. I don’t like being thought of as one of those ::points to the boys:: or misapprehended as being one of them. And in particular when I’m feeling sexual feelings about one of them ::points to the girls:: I don’t want them to think of me as one of those ::points to the boys again::

OK, now to really muddy the waters: I don’t really mind the body itself. I’ve certainly daydreamed a lot about waking up some morning to discover myself female, and wondered what it would be like, but I don’t look at my own body and hate it for being wrong or anything. It isn’t alien to me, I’ve been in it my whole life and it’s me, it’s who I am. It’s just that there are more than two genders. Some people like to describe straight male, gay male, straight female, and gay female as four different genders. There are obviously more than four. Maybe there are straight male boys and straight male girls, gay male boys and gay male girls, straight female girls and straight female boys, gay female girls and gay female boys, that’s eight?

Really, I don’t think you can map it. I doubt there’s an objective identity “it” out there that individuals discover themselves on, so much as you have a body and you have a culture which interprets it, and then you engage with those interpretations and embrace some pieces and argue against others, and that matrix and how you express and internalize it becomes a part of you. In most cases, a part of you that is of central identity-importance, although I’ve known of at least a few people who don’t seem to have the same centrality of emotional investment in sexual and gender identity.

Anyway: to the transsexual folks on board, hello from another person with overlapping experiences. I’d love to be able to talk about it and share and compare notes – something I’ve simply never done with anyone who could say “you too?” – and I hope the differences that make me “not quite one of you” are not, and are not expressed here, in a fashion that you find offensive.

22

It’s hard to notice your own gender identity unless there is something wrong with it. It seems so natural and obvious. That is why it is so distressing when something is off for it.

I think the first thing to do is notice how important gender is in society. People who gender-bend often inspire a sort of viceral revulsion rarely seen. Gender bending inspires feelings of anger, confusion and often hate even from otherwise generally accepting people. It violates some deeply held, almost instinctual sense of right and wrong. This isn’t evidence that gender-bending is wrong, it’s just evidence that gender is very very very important to us, to the point that to see devience is unbearable and almost unthinkable.

Then think of your body. Your probably pretty comfortable in your body. There may be some faults in it, but overall, it gets the job done. But some people will never feel like their body is right. Their penis or breasts feel like foreign parts- abberations, invasions, certainly not parts of themself. I’ve heard people lament being “poisened” but the X chromosone in the womb, leaving them with a strange and different body that doesn’t function like how they know their body ought to be functioning, doesn’t have the parts they know they ought to have. They feel like their body is just horribly wrong.

Then there are social roles. A man can never be a “slut” in the way that a woman can. A woman can never be a “good old boy” in the way a man can. Even a woman doctor is a very different prosepect than a man doctor. Men and women wear different clothes. They have different expectations placed on them. They can move their bodies in different ways.

These subtlties don’t mean much to most people becase they seem so natural. They are drilled into our heads from birth and by this point we’ve come to some sort of reconciliation. But a transgendered person is often painfully aware that the social roles corrosponding to their sex is not the ones they fit into.

It’s a hard subject. But I guess the idea is that you know that you feel like a man because you don’t feel like you don’t feel like a man. It all adds up for you. It doens’t for everyone.

23

I have no idea why, but I thought you were born a man too. Sorry

24

With regard to social roles, this really does seem to be more a case of simply wanting to be another gender. Gender identity is, remember, supposed to be a matter of genetics, whereas social roles change over time and differ from one society to another.

With regard to the other points you raised, they once again point to my question as to whether “gender identity” can only be perceived when something goes wrong. I do note with interest, though, that AHunter3 specicially stated:

Perhaps gender dysphoria means different things to different people.

Barry

25

sorry, that should say ‘born male’.

26

Maybe she means she was born a lesbian trapped in a man’s body?

27

No, Barry, you don’t have to be transgendered to have a pretty strong gender identity. I’m a natal woman, and I feel like a woman. Some people, however, don’t. They’re pretty gender-neutral, basing their gender identity purely on what bits they see or don’t see when they look down at their naked bodies. Other people have a strong gender identity that’s such a deep, fundamental part of them that they never notice it. It’s just something they take for granted as being the way things are, like being able to walk or talk.

I never really thought about it myself until people started telling me how unfeminine I was, and on one memorable occasion, accusing me of wanting to be a guy. I remember standing there in stunned silence thinking, “No, that would be really icky. I just want to be who I am.” Who I am is a woman who has short hair and doesn’t wear makeup or dresses very often, who likes big trucks and power tools and big fuzzy flannel shirts. I very much feel like a woman, and enjoy being a woman. It would just feel wrong to have a penis, even if I was suddenly attracted to women. I’d still feel like a woman. I’d just be a lesbian trapped in a man’s body.

Trying to explain a strong gender identity to someone who’s pretty gender neutral, or who has never examined their gender identity is like trying to explain a fetish to someone who doesn’t share it. You can talk and talk and talk, and give all sorts of examples and comparisons and anything else you care to do, but they’re still not going to really get it. I can’t explain to you how I feel like a woman, not so that you’ll really and truly understand it, any more than you can explain to a gay guy why you’re aroused by women.

28

Hmmmm… OK. If you say so. It’s just that it seems like gender identity, if it exists, should be something so fundamental, so visceral, that everybody should feel it one way or another. I guess you could call me “gender neutral.” I’m mean, I’m perfectly happy being a man, and have no doubt that I am a man, but it really doesn’t extend beyond the fact that I’m equipped as a man and am sexually attracted to people who aren’t so equipped (as far as I know, that is).

Barry

P.S. Beat you to the “lesbian trapped in a man’s body” comment! :wink:

29

godzillatemple, I’m not a “lesbian trapped in a man’s body” because it’s my body, and I’m not a man. For it to be a “man’s body” would require that it belong to somebody else.

Congrats on being the first person in this thread to make that tired old joke. :rolleyes:

30

Gender dysphoria certainly does mean different things for different people, and I should have prefaced my post by saying that I only wanted to give a taste of some of the manifestations of gender dysphoria. So many people seem hell-bent on believing it doesn’t exist, and I get a bit defensive.

In the end, we know that gender is a mix of social roles, hormones, anatomy and something else that goes on in the brain. We also know that whatever it is that is going on in the brain is the most important part. All of the other parts can change without really affecting what gender a person thinks he or she is. We will always be the gender we feel that we are.

And just because something is so natural and obvious to you (like your gender identity) doesn’t mean that it isn’t there. This reminds me of White people saying that they have no culture, that there is no feeling of being White. Of course it is easy to say that when you are in a world that assumes you are white. But you can bet the Black man in Finland is pretty aware of what it means to be White.

Simply because social roles play into it does not mean that it’s just something the person involved is making up. I know of six year old boys that can’t quite figure out why they feel so compelled to put on their mother’s dresses. All of these things that are innate to us can’t help buy play themselves out within the social framework that shapes our lives.

Sexual orientation is not all that closely tied to gender identity. You will find all possible combinations of orientations and indentities- although some populations might be more accepting of their transgendered friends than others.

and umm…TVAA, your gonna apologize for that post, right? I mean, it’s a little hard to be well ajusted when people kill people like you on a fairly regular basis just for being who you are, but I can assure you that gender identity has nothing to do with intellegence, and one of the most objectively brilliant people I know is transgendered.

31

I think you have it about right godzillatemple. I think that the main problem with understanding the idea is assuming that science must conform to society.

Generally though the world is less black and white than society.

32

Apologize for what?

It has been my experience that people without strong gender identifications are often smarter and happier than the average person. How exactly do you translate that into a slur against transgendered people?

:rolleyes:

Of course, I did say that you should interpret that as you wish. Perhaps we should discuss the immense chip on your shoulder instead.

33

Kelly, I don’t think he meant to be offensive, and I know I didn’t, nor was it meant as a joke. What I meant, and what I figured was implied, was lesbian trapped in a male body. I’m very sorry if I accidentally hurt your feelings.

34

Now, if we may return to the actual topic of this thread…?

What exactly do you mean by “gender identity”? Are we talking about emotional and personality factors as well as physiological ones? Why would an awareness of one’s own physiology be a cue for gender identity?

35

FWIW Godzilla, I completely understand your point. I am a man, and I have a very strong attraction to women, but other than that, I don’t feel like a man. In fact, like you, I have no idea what that means. I know that I am bored when other guys talk about sports (but lots of women talk about sports too). I don’t particularly like having to always initiate sexual contact; I would love for women to ask me out, initiate the first kiss, etc.; I think it would be nice to feel attractive and to be able to dress provocatively and have those of the opposite gender notice me. I don’t feel any particular desire to suppress my emotions; we all have emotions. I have both aggressive and submissive impulses. I can see an attractive woman and alternately think, “I’d sure like to pounce on her”, or “That would be fun if she pounced on me.” On the other hand, I have an interest in mechanical things, and don’t have a big desire to join a sewing circle or anything. I just don’t feel what’s so “male” about me other than my sexual preference, but I certainly don’t feel like a woman, either. I just feel like me. I’ve always felt that gender roles were more a construct of society than anything else.

36

Although I must admit that I hate Meg Ryan and Meryl Streep movies, but enjoyed Die Hard and Terminator:wink:

37

TVAA, that’s not what you said the first time.

38

Yes, it is.

  • “Major gender issues” includes such strong gender identification as CrazyCatLady’s.

What exactly are we talking about, here? Is it being suggested that some people will base their personality on their physiology (“basing their gender identity purely on what bits they see or don’t see when they look down at their naked bodies”)?

Incidentally, I can accept many of the reported facts concerning the famous case of the little “girl” who didn’t identify with other girls and as genetically/physiologically a male, but I’m somewhat skeptical of the claim that a person can be innately predisposed to urinating while standing.

39

FWIW, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having strong gender identities, and it’s possible that I do strongly identify with my gender, as long as we’re opening up the playing field to include, for example, androgyny as a gender :).

I know that as an adolescent, there was a period when the word “androgyne” scared the living shit out of me: I was worried that androgyny was keeping me single, that I’d never fall in love because I wasn’t properly Male, that there was something deeply and fundamentally wrong with me.

At some point, however, it clicked in my head: fuck 'em. If someone isn’t attracted to androgynous guys, they’re not gonna be attracted to me, and I’ll just need to get over my attraction to them. And if someone is threatened by my androgyny, that’s their cross to bear, not mine. That was the point where I stopped worrying about people who call me “ma’am” on the phone or in person, the guys who do a double-take when they come into the men’s room and see me in there, the dumbasses who (rarely these days, thank God) confront me in the street about why I have long hair, etc.

Indeed, the majority of women that have been attracted to me have had some bisexual leanings, or have been lesbian for awhile, or something similar. I figure I fill a niche market, datingwise.

And now that I think about it, I’ve got some androgynous genderbender friends, especially on the male side. Couple of my male friends dress up in feminine clothes for Hallowe’en and for formal parties. They’re not really going in drag – they’re not dressing as caricatures of women. Instead, they’re dressing like Lucretia Addams, all black lace and satin.

Folks who feel like women in an XY body (KellyM, I phrase it that way for your sake – I don’t want to argue over words like “male” or “man’s body” with you), or who feel like men in an XY body, or women in an XX body, or whatever don’t bother me. I just don’t understand their emotions on the subject very well, not having analogous emotions myself. But hell, I don’t need to understand them, I just need to respect them.

Daniel

40

Ah, so having a strong gender self-identity makes you stupid. You’re really not helping your case here, TVAA. I don’t think even sven is the one with the chip on the shoulder in this instance.