I can definitely see the confusion of states, though, on ResIpsaLoquitor’s part. J’Noël currently (and did so at the time) works at Park University/College, which is in Parkville, Missouri.
KellyM, for what it’s worth, I am blithely unaware of the “correct” terminology when it comes to talking about such issues, and I apologize if the phrase “man’s body” instead of “male body” was offensive.
Just so I understand where you’re coming from, though, I did interpret your original post to mean that you were, in fact, transgendered, that you were born with a penis but internally feel that you are a woman (who just so happens to be attracted to other women). Is this the case?
Barry
If I can further ask for clarification…
Do you identify as “female” or a “woman” or both? As I stated earlier, there seems to be, etymologically speaking, a growing separation between sex and gender–i.e., sex is biological while gender is identification. Do you use the terms “female” and “woman” interchangeably? How do you define biology versus personal identity? Is biology enitirely irrelevant, and just an accident of existence?
godzillatemple, it’s the phrase “lesbian in a man’s body” that’s offensive, because it’s been used so many times as part of a pickup line by stupid guys who seem to think that their cock is capable of curing lesbianism, or at least seem to think that they should be the exception to the general practice of of not dating men followed by the particular lesbian they’re harassing at the moment.
I’m quite open on these boards about being a transsexual lesbian.
I think I understand, KellyM, correct me if I am wrong.
(I did do a search and I see that you were born a male.)
I am guessing that you are not responding directly to the question because it is kindasorta saying that you are not fully a woman (in an indirect way, of course) and you don’t want to give any impression of that.
I thought I was remembering wrong and that’s why I did a search, to confirm what I thought to be true.
Sorry for any confusion, JD
ResIpsaLoquitor: A woman is a adult female person. I am an adult, I am female, and I am a person, so I am a woman. The terms are not entirely interchangeable, as “woman” implies adulthood and personhood, which “female” does not. (A cat can be female without being a woman.)
I do not identify as male in any way. The only people who need to know that I’m XY are my health care providers, and they record my sex on their records as “F” (I’ve seen the records). The only time I’ll use the term “male” in reference to myself is in the phrase “male-to-female transsexual”. Some of my legal documentation still claims that I’m male; this is mainly because I have not deemed it worth the effort to convince them that they are wrong.
Biology is not irrelevant, certainly, insofar as my XY chromosomes, birth physiology, and the current state of medical science mean I won’t be able to bear any children. But my gender is determined (as far as I can tell) by my neuroanatomy and not by my gross physical anatomy. The current nature and form of my genitals is not a topic I consider fit for discussion with people with whom I am not intimate. I consider my anatomical details to constitute a birth defect, specifically that my gross anatomy is inconsistent with that aspect of neuroanatomy that determines gender. As the former is incidental while the latter is integral to personality, adjusting the former seems preferable.
My boyfriend is an “androgyn” (I normally just use transgendered) and I love androgyn men. Women’s bodies are just not sexually appealing, but I don’t like the mentality that most men have.
godzillatemple, making some transgendered friends is one of the best ways to learn about transgendered people. Otherwise, it is a bit impossible for most people to understand.
In keeping with your OP, when my boyfriend is in a straight relationship whether he dates a woman or a man. When he dates women (like me) he adopts a more masculine identity. But if he were to date men, he wouldn’t date gay guys, but a straight one because he wants to be treated like a woman. Gays don’t want to date guys who act like women, but guys that act like guys.
People treat you different if you are a man or a woman. If you are passable in drag, I suggest that you try it out sometime. If not, then find someone who is and watch. You’ll learn a lot about your own gender identity that way.
OK, then my next question would be, why should we accept your definition of “woman”? (This question is not meant to be accusational in tone–I’m looking for further clarification of your perspective.)
Actually, I’ll grant that this is not your definition per se–I just checked two dictionaries, and they both state “adult female person.” However, neither suggested that the contemporary definition separates identity from biology–my suspicion is that they work from the supposition that a “woman” has xx chromosomes and, assuming an absence any unforeseen difficulties, a certain anatomical configuration. As we’ve said with In re Gardiner, the law appears to work from that definition. I don’t have any medical dictionaries in front of me, but I assume they would do the same. This is also probably the underlying assertion of whatever percentage of the population does not have gender dysphoria–they probably base their perspective of gender on what’s between the legs, if not what’s in one’s cell structure.
So my question is–why should the rest of the world change its definition of gender based on the say-so of a much smaller percentage of the population? This is not a “majority rules” question; rather, your perspective strikes me as “I’m a woman because I say so.” I’m wondering if and why that should be enough to create a philosophical shift in the world’s understanding of sexuality. Alternatively, you state that
The opposing perspective would be the opposite: that your neuroanatomy is inconsistent with your gross anatomy. I’ve asked this before on the boards without receiving an answer: why is it preferential that the body conform to the brain, and not the reverse?
ResIpsaLoquitor, changing the body to conform to the brain is preferable to the converse because changing the brain to conform to the body (a) is not even close to possible with current or reasonably anticipated medical technology and (b) as best we understand, would invariably destroy the person’s identity.
In my opinion, the rest of the world should change its definition of gender because my definition of gender is correct, and theirs is not. I believe that science will one day lend objective support to my definition. In the meantime, I also argue that my definition is consistent with the position that diversity and compassion are positive virtues, and that the opposite definition is contrary to both of these.
So if I go into a women’s clothing store, buy a pair of panties, and put ‘em on, I’m still not "walkin’ round in women’s underwear", then.
Since you say the very construction of the English language must bend before your will.
Otherwise, it certainly either is, or was, a “man’s body”, regardless of what you are.
Ah. Well, that’s why I refrained from using the phrase to describe myself in my OP. But I did think it was uniquely appropriate to your situation, at least insofar as I understood what your situation was.
Barry
I wouldn’t quite put it as bluntly as RTFirefly just did…but yeah, why?
To put it another way–if I were arguing before the US Supreme Court in Dred Scott back in the 1850s, I’d argue that African-Americans were “persons” entitled to Constitutional protection due to their inherent worth as human persons, how there is no inherent differentiation between blacks and whites, that the cultural and physical differences are superficial, yadda yadda yadda." The “my opinion is correct” argument, whether true or not, doesn’t do a lot to convince people.
As KellyM said, we do that because that is the truth. All the scientific evidence points to the fact that gender is determined in the brain. None of it supports any other theories. There is no way to “treat” gender dysphoria. No amount of counciling or drugs will change things. There are only ways to make the affected person’s life livable. Even surgery though surgery and hormone treatments arn’t perfect, they do help. And help is needed. Suicide rates can be as high as 25%. This isn’t some fun little game. FOor a lot of people, this is the most important subject in their lives.
It’s not a matter of simply changing language. We need to change minds. We need to teach people that gender is not a neutral, cut and dried subject. I mean, you know who is a man and who is a woman, right? But do you really know? Have you seen their genitals? Have you ever done a genetic test? Would your opinion change if their genetics supported the other conclusion? What about their anatomy? You probably wouldn’t- you’d probaby still think “man” or “woman” whenever you related to them. Intersex people are out there in huge numbers. More people that you’d ever realize have some mix ups going on between the brain, anatomy and hormones. There are almost endless variations. Many are never discovered until a person fails to concieve, or doesn’t hit puberty, or dies and is dissected. And yet all of these people have no problem figuring out if they are a boy or a girl.
What has to happen is we have to realize that the concept of gender is complicated, but generally you ought to respect whatever gender a person says they are. They know better than you.
I don’t mean to be obtuse, and I recognize that perhaps I am just incapable of “getting” it, but this is where the whole thing becomes confusing to me. If you, as a transgencered indiivdual, have a “neuroanatomy” that indicates that you are “really” a female in spite of your chromosomes or anatomy, then why don’t I, as a plain old ordinary male also have a “neuroanatomy” that tells me that I am “really” a male? What is this “neuroanatomy,” anyway? Is it something that can be measured scientifically? Have you had physical (as opposed to psychological) tests done that show what your neuroanatomy is? Or is it just a technical term to describe the “feeling” you have that you are a particular gender?
I dunno. I don’t think that sexual dysphoria is “all in your head” anymore than I think that schizophrenia is all in somebody’s head. In each case, there is apparently something wrong with the brain chemistry somewhere. But I do think that ResIpsaLoquitor raises a valid point when he asks why the “cure” for sexual dysphoria should be an alteration of the body to fit the “abnormal” brain chemisty rather than fixing the abnormal brain chemistry to fit the body…
Back to the OP, though, my question really wasn’t about whether transgendered are “normal” or not. My question was really what does it mean to say that somebody (whether transgendered or not) “feels” like a man or a woman. I can understand a desire to live a specific role in society (e.g., I want to be the breadwinner and make all the decisions in the family, so therefore I want to be a man, or I want to wear frilly clothes and be taken care of, therefore I wish I were a woman), but those roles are dictated by society and are not the product of genetics. So what if a 6-year-old buy likes to wear dresses and play with dolls? What do dresses and dolls have to do with chromosomes or anatomy? For someone to say that they prefer to be treated the way one gender is usually treated in our society is all well and good, but that doesn’t mean that this person “is” that gender as a result, any more than my love of Monty Python, Douglas Adams and Red Dwarf means that I am “really” an Englishman.
So… what does it mean to feel like a man or a woman?
Barry
I guess I should have been more clear, Res. I was (in this instance) merely questioning KellyM’s revocation of standard English usage, through counterexample. (And bitchiness. My apologies, Kelly.)
I think the presumption has to be that a given person knows more about his/her inner reality than any other person does. There are limits to the validity of this presumption, IMHO: if I go to the doctor and say, “demons have taken over my eyes; will you help me put them out?” I’ve flipped, and the presumption gets overturned. But I support Kelly’s right to consider herself who/what she is, and to be regarded as female, since that is how she experiences her gender.
But to me, the flip side of this is that that deal applies to others besides KellyM. There’s a spectrum here: there are people in men’s bodies who wouldn’t be comfortable being anything but a man; there are people in men’s bodies for whom the physiology contradicted their inner identity, as was the case for Kelly. But there are those in men’s bodies who are somewhere in between, and they have the same right. If they want to call themselves “male lesbians”, that’s their prerogative. Are they to be denied that right because a buncha jerks got there first? I don’t think so, any more than any buncha jerks should tell Kelly that she’s really a man.
even sven: Sorry, I was composing my last message while you were typing yours. Can you provide some links to the “scientific evidence points to the fact that gender is determined in the brain”? Is this related to the “neuroanatomy” that KellyM referred to earlier?
I guess what I’m struggling with is the fact that, in my expeirence, it is usually only the sexually dysphoric who talk about having a “gender identity” in the first place (I say “usually” since CrazyCatLady has already provided a counter-example). Most people, I have always assumed, define their gender based on their anatomy, and the only time that “gender identity” comes up is when people claim that their anatomy is incorrect (a “birth defect” as KellyM says).
Barry
godzillatemple, there is some small amount of scientific evidence for neuroanatomical differences in the hippocampus (Eve, if you’re reading this, correct me if I’m wrong) corresponding to gender. The study found neuroanatomical differences between men and self-identified male-to-female transsexuals, even when the transsexual had never taken hormones. The affected structure in the transsexual is essentially the same as found in natal women. (Previous studies had noted the same difference in transsexuals who had taken hormones; the newer study seeks to rule out hormones as a causative agent in the difference.) These studies are, to date, of insufficient breadth to constitute proof, but as of yet nobody has come up with results that are not consistent, at least not as far as I know. As of yet, this structure can only be examined post-mortem, so there is no way to test for it in a living person. I suspect that as MRI technology improves, this will change. It may well become possible to scan your head and from that tell you whether you’re male or female, in the not-too-distant future.
We’ve tried a number of approaches for “correcting” neurochemistry. The only one that seems to work (for male-to-female transsexuals) is oral (or injectable) estrogen. A lot of transsexuals I’ve spoken to report the same thing I experienced: a week or so after starting HRT, they went through a period of emotional disorientation, after which the world seemed clearer than it ever did before. I’m convinced that this is because some part of the transsexual brain is wired to operate properly at a certain level of estrogen (which the body does not produce in sufficient quantities). It seems likely to me that whatever this part is is probably somehow related to gender.
Of course, the side effect of oral estrogen is feminization of the body, which in my case was a welcome side-effect. To be honest, I don’t need surgery to be happy with myself; I could live the rest of my life without the surgery (although I do want it and I believe that I will be happier for it when I can get it). My hormones, however, are not subject to compromise. I need those for my sanity. They are the only thing that work.
The screening process for approval for HRT and eventually surgery consists of answering two questions: first, does the patient believe that s/he is transgendered, and second, is the patient sane? The other aspects of the standards of care are intended to protect the patient from unnecessary stress. The therapist is not supposed to evaluate for himself/herself whether the patient actually is transsexual, only whether the patient’s belief is based on a true internal conviction, rather than being imposed externally or the result of some other mental defect.
godzillatemple, I can sympathize with where you are coming from. I am also a male who doesn’t really have a sense of the sort of “gender identity” that CrazyCatLady reports. For example, if I imagine myself waking up female, I don’t see myself feeling that I can’t live in my body because it doesn’t fit who I am. I can see that it would feel strange at first, but I think I’d get used to it. At first it might be odd having protrusions in different places, but not in a “my god this is so wrong it’s going to drive me crazy!” sort of way. I think it would be more like the experience of going to a different country where everyone drives on the “wrong” side of the street, or where the hot and cold faucet knobs are switched. I can see some reasons I’d want to switch back to male, but those have mostly to do with (1) the comfort of familiarity, and (2) not wanting to have to deal with some of the things women routinely have to deal with in our society, such as unwelcome sexual advances and greater demands on appearance.
On the other hand, I don’t think that “it is usually only the sexually dysphoric who talk about having a “gender identity” in the first place.” I frequently encounter the notion that something fundamental, even something in the constitution of our soul, determines our gender.
For example, I just finished reading a sci-fi novel from 1943 by A.E. Van Vogt, Two Hundred Million A.D., in which some of the characters have the ability to project their minds and take over other peoples’ bodies. At one point, someone asks a female character whether she can possess a male body. She replies that she can only possess women or female animals because “there is a physical law involved”. She does not elaborate, but one is left with the impression that Van Vogt attributes gender to something far more fundamental than the plumbing between the legs.
Another example from fiction is the Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkien. There is a description of the Valar (gods) taking on corporeal bodies. Some of them choose male bodies and some choose female bodies, “for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby.”
So, while I, like you, cannot really make sense of what people mean subjectively when they speak of feeling male or female “on the inside”, it’s clear to me that this feeling is pretty widespread.
In one of the previous transexuality threads I posted both a link to the study and a link answering the objections to the study.
I can’t find the post at the moment. IIRC the difference was in the thalmic bed.
RE The OP
I am a man.
I find sports boring. I don’t like beer. I feel no need to drive a car with a supercharged engine.
I enjoy sewing. I enjoy cooking. I like playing with children.
Despite the fact that I don’t match the stereotype of male behavior, I have a strong gender identity. It is a very visceral feeling and is difficult to put into words. It is not dependent on my sexual orientation. It is not dependent on my genitals. It is simply who I am.
My two cents: I’m with DanielWithrow. I don’t understand what “feeling like a man” or “feeling like a woman” even means. I’m a man, I have male parts. I like them; they do their job. But if I were to wake up tomorrow a woman, my first thought would be “Great! Let’s try this for a while!”.
I guess that’s also why I’m bisexual. Since gender is so close to irrelevant for me, I can’t see why it should influence my choice of partner.