Help! My son decided to do a speech on a manned Mars mission

I’m allowed to help him with the facts.

He’s in grade 6 and has already submitted his topic, now we’re looking for some basic facts and are confused. I don’t know what President Obama has committed to.

  1. What is the official word from the Pres?

  2. What is NASA’s plan regarding the Orion program? Is it on or off?

  3. Do they have a 10 year, 20 year, 30 year plan, or at least vision?

  4. Is ion propulsion the engine of the future, and if so how’s that coming?

  5. Anything else?
    It’s only a five minute speech. He started researching with Obama’s speech here, but hasn’t this been put on the back burner now?

Any tidbits of information are welcomed. Again, I’m only helping him with his facts.

Here’s some food for thought, but you might remember the thread, and have already looked at it. And it doesn’t answer your specific questions, but it’s a free bump.

Make sure he mentions it is just a limit of our desire, not our capability. Getting to Mars has its problems but all of those are engineering and math problems. Put a smart man in a room long enough he will figure it out. Hell NASA wanted to do a manned Venus flyby in the 70s I think and have some type of Base on mars by the 80s.

  1. From Obama’s speech on April 2010: “By the mid-2030s, I believe we can send humans to orbit Mars and return them safely to Earth. And a landing on Mars will follow. And I expect to be around to see it.” [

  2. The Orion program is still on. Here’s their web page.

  3. Here’s an overview of NASA’s mars missions past present and future. There is no specific plan for a manned mission at present.

  4. NASA thinks Ion propulsion is the “propulsion of choice”, and they’re working on it.

  5. For a 6th grade audience, I think the key points are that there are some big challenges that need to be worked out before we can do this, namely how to support astronauts (food & air) for the long trip and how to get them back.

As ChrisBooth suggests, the biggest challenge is deciding we really want to do it. When we launched the moon program, we didn’t know anything about spaceflight and didn’t have any of the technologies to pull it off. We went from JFK’s “we choose to go to the moon” speech to Armstrong’s “One small step for [a] man” in just 7 years.

Thanks for the links and advice anson; that’s the kind of stuff I was looking for.

I still welcome other comments!

Just? I think I do get what you mean, but most would see such as a BFD. Almost every single aspect of the design will be filled with compromises toward weight reduction. You can’t just make everything “the best” because the definition of “best” is determined by a whole host of competing goals, often as much political as technical. Just one example: Teflon is pretty much the “best” electrical insulation. It also releases toxic gasses if/when it burns.

Getting the crew there and back in good physical and mental condition is also not trivial. Rather heroic efforts have been needed due to medical emergencies in Antarctica. That won’t be possible for a mars mission. Even if you send a surgeon along she will have a tough time taking out her own appendix.

Beyond pure politics, the social ramifications of failure need to be addressed. Given the history of (one way!) unmanned missions, I’d put the odds of success at no better than a coin toss. I’d love to see it happen, but I’m not sure I’d want to see manned space exploration tabled for several generations after the mars crew died a slow lonely death.

I think we’ll leave the “slow lonely death” part out of the grade 6 speech. :wink:

Go and get The Case for Mars by Robert Zubrin from the Ottawa Public Library. It’s a bit dated but you can see a lot of the more recent Constellation program in early form. Very cool book and worth it for the Rah! Rah! Rah! piece your son will want for a speech.

Right now NASA is being punted around in political squabbles. There was an authorization bill passed a few months ago that’s an outline for the short term budget, but apparently congresscritters still need to approve a final detailed budget for each program. There’s lots of pork in space apparently…

Here’s a basic overview of the current state of the politics.

Thanks Grey!

You can also go and look at The Mars Society (Canada) page.

Actually use the US page - The Mars Society since it’ll have way more activity on it.

www.nasaspaceflight.com is the best source for actual NASA stuff/details, imho. LOTS of NASA engineers/managers hang out there and can point you to the actual ‘documents’ that would be needed to answer your questions. The Forum section is well ‘attended’ for the most part, so answers are usually pretty quick overall, ime.

THere is quite a bit of planning that is not nailed down just yet as there is still lots of haggling about ‘heavy-lift’ -v- multiple smaller launches, and other things not yet hashed out in Congress (financing stuff, per se).

Thanks for all great info guys!

Hey, your son sounds like a bright kid. Can I hire him in 12 years? Naturally, I’ll provide an an office off of his for you to make sure the work gets done.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but I think your son would benefit greatly by having to find the information on his own. Being able to do that is a valuable skill in and of itself. Much more important than the topic. Just a thought.

He’s 11. He did start on his own. I asked some questions here because he started quoting Obama’s speech from last April. I thought I had heard that Orion had been canceled.

His teacher told us, in person during the last interview, that parents were allowed to help out on this one, because it wasn’t necessarily the content of the speech that was important, but rather the delivery in front of the class. As a parent all I am doing is checking some basic facts so that he stays on the right track.

What part of “I’m allowed to help him with the facts” from my OP is confusing you?

Out of curiosity, is this speech a “this is what our current Mars plans are” thing, or a “why we should go to Mars” type thing?

You are being a jerk - this is no different than hanging around the water cooler and talking about a kid’s project.

Some clarifications: Orion is the spacecraft (crew modules, service module, launch abort system, miscellaneous sundries) that is delivered to orbit the the Ares I space launch vehicle (rocket, a five-segment version of the Shuttle Solid Rocket Booster with a second stage using an upper stage based on the J-2X liquid engine which is a modified and uprated version of the engine use on the Saturn S-IVB). Other propulsive components of the Constellation exploration system are the Earth Departure Stage to inject the Orion into transLunar injection orbit (the last concept used a J-2X, making it basically a bigger version of the S-IVB), the Altair Lunar Exploration Module (a larger Apollo LM), and the heavy lift Ares V rocket (based on Shuttle-derived hardware) which would launch the EDS and the Altair into orbit for rendezvous with the Orion.

Officially, the Constellation program has been placed on hold, with no funding for the program itself other than a small amount of sustainment funding. There is still a commitment to developing the Orion spacecraft and the Ares I vehicle, and tests of both systems have and will continue to occur, although there is a significant amount of discussion about using an existing heavy lift booster like the Delta IV or Atlas V in place of the Ares I for numerous technical reasons that are not germane to the discussion. This would require man-rating these boosters, which is not an insignificant effort but which may ultimately be more cost effective. The Ares V development is currently on standby.

Alternatives to the current Constellation program components have been suggested, including the Jupiter rocket system proposed by a group of NASA Marshall engineers and managers as the launch vehicle component of the DIRECT proposal, now in its third version. The Jupiter is a modular heavy-to-super heavy lift rocket based upon Shuttle-derived hardware which is claimed to be superior to the Ares V in that it can use the existing Shuttle assembly and launch facilities with minimal modification. It would use the existing Shuttle RSRBs as parallel Stage 0 boosters attached to a “common core” cryogenic Stage 1 using a tank structure similar to the Shuttle External Tank (ET) with three or four Shuttle Main Engines (SSME) for primary propulsion. The second stage of the superheavy lift version would be a cryogenic upper stage using six of the RL10 engine from the Saturn S-IV and Centaur (also currently used on the Delta IV Upper Stage). Post-boost departure stages would be part of the payload, although the RL10 is technically restartable and could be used as a post-boost stage as well. Apparently these engineers have formed a company or consortium known as C-Star Aerospace, LLC. (C-star is the abbreviation for the a quality known as the characteristic exhaust velocity, used to compare the relative performance of different chemical rocket systems and propellants.)

Other Shuttle-drived proposals have been drawn in the past. In addition, there are the commercial rocket vendors; in addition to the Lockheed Martin Atlas V and the Boeing Delta IV Heavy there is also the Space Exploration Falcon-9 and -9H (albeit still having teething problems into their sixth flight of the Falcon system) and the Orbital Sciences Taurus II (using two refurbished NK-33 engines on Stage 1 and a commercial Castor-30 solid motor for Stage 2, as yet unflown). Both of these are primarily intended to provide Commercial Orbital Transportation System program (COTS) for continued access to the ISS, though they could be adapted for use with a revamped Constellation program.

As for commitments, plans, and visions for a manned mission to Mars: there are none that are fixed, nor have there been in the history of the American space program, all banner waving aside. There are three reasons for this: the first is cost; the cost of such a program would eclipse Apollo (adjusted for inflation) by at least an order of magnitude. There are new technologies to be developed, and such a program is logistically more complex and hazardous than any Lunar mission. An Apollo XIII type failure during a Mars manned mission would be a fatal loss of billions of dollars.

The second reason is a lack of public interest. The public interest during the Gemini/Apollo program was waning, and that was a program that was able to come to fruition in less than a decade. A manned mission to Mars is easily twenty years away from inception, regardless of the amount of money or manpower thrown at it. The necessary development hurdles cannot be swept away with bulk cash or enthusiasm.

The third reason is necessity, or rather the lack of it. Current robotic missions to Mars (both orbiters and mobile landers) have provided a wealth of information for a mission period that is several times what would be possible with a manned mission, and at a cost that is literally fractions of pennies to what it would cost for a manned mission. And of course, we don’t have to return the rovers, or mourn their loss once the mission is complete. The Mars Exploration Rovers have been extraordinarily successful, lasting far beyond their planned 90 day missions, and the Mars Science Laboratory, if it is deployed without failure, will be able to perform exploration and scientific examination far beyond what could be expected of any manned mission for a planned duration of nearly two years. While a manned mission to Mars would provide a great flag and footprints moment, a failure (and lost of crew) would be both devastating and extremely costly, while the lost of a rover or probe, while embarrassing, will not spell an end to exploration.

In general, manned space exploration beyond Earth orbit is neither productive or, at this point of technological maturity, adequately safe to be worthy of serious discussion. While I believe that humanity will at some point begin to colonize orbital and interplanetary space, I suspect that the first of such ventures will be to mine the Near Earth Asteroids and then the asteroid belt for resources, then moving to the outer planets. There is little on Mars that appears to be of great value either for practical research (beyond a better understanding of the development of the solar system and perhaps the possibility of extraterrestrial life) or resource exploitation, which is necessary to put space habitation on a sound fiscal basis.

As for ion engines, a low but high specific impulse constant thrust engine would definitely be a significant improvement over chemical engines with a specific impulse of a few hundred seconds, and a thrust period of tens or hundreds of seconds. However, the energy efficiency of the engines that we can currently build is very low (on the order of 1-2%) and the level of thrust is only suited to stationkeeping and attitude control systems on orbiting satellites or very small probes. There are a number of different systems for generation ion thrust for propulsion (the Wikipedia page has a decent summary of these); in addition to the efficiency problem, many of them suffer from problems with erosion or heating which make it difficult to scale them up to a usable thrust for large spacecraft propulsion.

There are other systems your son might research, like nuclear pulse propulsion (Project ORION, not to be confused with the Constellation Orion spacecraft) and Prometheus, nuclear thermal rockets (NERVA), and fission fragment or nuclear fission salt rocket propulsion that is suitable for interplanetary propulsion. All of these systems are nascent, though, and none are being actively developed for use.

Stranger

Thanks Stranger. That was enlightening.