I know that he’s not ready for a child right now, but that’s about as much as I know. I don’t know why. He can’t tell me why. He can’t tell me what he needs to feel ready, he can’t tell me at what point he thinks he’ll start being ready.
It’s not like I follow him around all the time saying, ‘‘When can we have a baby? Can we have a baby now? How about now? Huh? Huh?’’ because that would create ridiculous pressure for him and it would be obvious why he is so freaked out about it. I estimate we’ve discussed this, on average, about once every six months for the past five years. He has never given any indication that he feels too much pressure. And last year, when we discussed it, we planned to start the adoption process this summer. He was still on board with that earlier this summer, until we had that fateful conversation in which he confessed he would find it much easier if we conceived for our first child.
He knows what it’s not.
It’s not money – we can afford it. It’s not about being the sole breadwinner. He just doesn’t know what it is.
Yet when I ask him, gently, if he really wants children, he becomes angry and defensive that I would even consider that he does not. He definitely wants children, he tells me. Just not until he’s ready.
So what’s ready? I have no idea. The only thing I’m getting from him is that it has something to do with not feeling overwhelmed. But when I explain that feeling overwhelmed is a part of life, he gets angry about that too.
I don’t know what his deal is, I have tried to understand. He needs to figure it out. If at the end of those 9 months he comes to me and says he realizes he really doesn’t want children so that he can focus on his career, then fine, we’ll deal with it. I’m not saying it won’t be painful but I can handle actually having information and an understanding and clear expectations.
Those are exactly what I don’t 'have right now. Though I imagine he has no idea what is really going on, either, or else he would tell me. I absolutely believe he has done his best to do right by me. But we’re still having this fundamental disconnect on this issue and I don’t know why, and at this point I really don’t think it’s my responsibility to solve it for him.
It’s lying to promise to marry them and not marry them absent any change in circumstances. If ciorcumstances change, then circumstances change, but nothing changed here. Olive’s husband had exactly the same knowledg when he mad ethe promise as whenhe broke it. She told him if he had any reservations at all to tell her. He didn’t. That’s dickless.
If I make a promise to my wife, especilaly if it’s something I know is very important to her, I keep it. Even if I start feeling liek I shouldn’t have promised something or have a “change of heart,” then I suck it up as my own hard luck, and act like man and do what I said I would do.
I had to abort my own grad school plans when my wife got pregnant with our first. I wasn’t really ready. Too bad for me. The universe doesn’t care what I’m ready for. If you are committed to other people, then sometimes you have to crawl out of your own ass and honor that commitment.
Woah…Olives. This thread is hard to read. You write with such clarity and intensity that it’s really conveying the emotional pain you are going through now…
With that said, and this may be totally incorrect or inappropriate, but all this doesn’t sound healthy. It just doesn’t. Maybe it’s simply the aforementioned writing style, but there’s something coming across that just doesn’t feel good. I realize that’s not very good criticism, so I’ll try to be a bit more specific.
One, you need to quit thinking your husband betrayed you. He did not betray you. He made a mistake, but IMO it was not a betrayal, and I’ll explain why. Yes, changing his mind like that was very painful to you, and indeed he broke his promise. He told you he wouldn’t change his mind and then did. That much is clear. Where things started going off the rails is he should NEVER have made that promise in the first place. Not the act of changing his mind, but rather agreeing to make such a promise was the big mistake. Here’s the kicker though, you should have NEVER asked him to promise such a thing either.
In other words, he made an unrealistic promise, but it sounds to me like you unwittingly put him up to it. If your emotions in real life are anything close to what has been displayed on this thread, then how could your husband refuse you? It sounds to me like your husband loves you so much that he honestly worked himself up into wanting a baby. He wanted it bad. He felt it! And when you came to him and said “Do you want a baby, hon? You know how much it means to me. Oh, and once you tell me your decision you can never change your mind or I’ll be super-incredibly hurt,” well, he probably convinced himself he felt ready. (Although honestly, many people never feel ready, bu that’s another issue entirely).
In any case, putting all emotions aside, it’s just an altogether unfair promise to make. This is a person, not a machine, and it’s a baby, not a mortgage. Yes, he should have been more open to you about what he was thinking, but sometimes it’s not that clear. Nobody can be expected to be totally stolid and steadfast throughout such weighty matters. (Except maybe in the Dio Zonetwilite-zone-theme). I’m biased I guess, but I really feel bad for your husband, as to me it seems like he got put into a no-win scenario.
Getting back to emotions, look, I’m not saying your emotions are invalid, because they are not. You feel super betrayed, and whether you were or were not is almost besides the point, at this point. What I’m saying is two-fold. One, I really think you need to put yourself in your husband’s shoes for a little time longer. Two, perhaps consider that your reaction is not matching what your husband did. You say you feel an outrage akin to infidelity. This is nothing like that, at all! The way you feel is to be expected and totally normal based on what you’ve written, but that doesn’t mean it’s the healthy thing. I get the impression your feelings of betrayal are about way more than having a baby, and upon re-reading I see that’s the case.
Speaking of my impressions, on top of all that, there were a few things you posted that honestly scare the fucking bejeezus out of me.
Because I like you a lot, this terrifies me. Absolutely terrifies. I understand what you’re saying and how it all makes sense, but…woah. First of all, in my amateurish opinion, your baby aspirations should not be predicated on, paired with, or in any way, shape, or form linked to your past trauma. What you said about this process bringing you healing makes me suspect whether this whole, entire baby thing is an attempt to bring further wholeness into your life. I realize that’s a horrible thing to say, and I know you’d never do it on purpose, but that’s the specter it raises in my mind.
Second is, and again it’s something I can understand but not accept–how your husband’s change of heart has so strongly reinvigorated the trauma from your past demons. Why is trusting him a fundamental requirement for your healing? I know you said you don’t want to get into it, but I think you might have to if you are really going to get to the bottom of this. I think I’ve said enough for now. As always I wish you the best of luck. ::hug::
Wow, this is even douchier than I thought. Breaking his word is bad enough, but not even being willing to tell you why? That is one selfish prick. You say he can see how much it hurts you, but apparently your hurt is not important enough to him to even merit an explanation?
You may have dodged a bullet not having a baby with this guy. Is he always this callous and self-absorbed?
But what if you realize you don’t love them? Or that you thought you did, but enough time has gone by, but you realize that maybe you made the decision rashly? Not that you were lying, but that perhaps it was an ill advised decision. Or perhaps you marry someone when you’re young, and five or ten years later, the person hasn’t changed, but you don’t value the same traits as you once did. I’m not saying it’s a great thing. I’m just saying that people can’t be expected to be locked in like that. It hurts when they aren’t, but humans aren’t immovable. We can change without necessarily being bad people or liars.
Yes, I think this is what I feel, too. I think olives isn’t wrong to feel hurt, but I don’t think the husband is wrong to express his emotions either. Sometimes, we get hurt, and there isn’t necessarily a bad guy to blame.
By the time a married man is 27 he kind of needs to be over the Peter Pan phase of his life. Your husband is a world class neurotic ditherer, and you are a world class over analyzer. These tendencies, despite your love for each other, are a prescription for a difficult life together when it comes to making large decisions.
If his responses are as you’ve indicated there are (IMO) really two real world possibilities.
The bottom line is -
1: he doesn’t really want kids period
or
2: He doesn’t want kids with you
Based on your posts neither of these are acceptable outcomes. You need to stop wringing your hands and trying to “understand” him. Men speak most clearly by their actions. He’s told you how he really feels by his actions. He does not want kids. He’s not going to articulate it to you because he knows this would probably fracture your relationship irreparably. You need to take that and move on to your next level in your decision making.
I’m really appreciative of your words. I know a lot of stuff that challenges my position is really out of concern. I like that. I enjoy having my position challenged.
I never intended to link the baby with past trauma, it just blindsided me. Shit, I guess I will have to go into it.
Past history of sexual abuse = intimacy issues for the last 8 years.
Conceiving a child = resolving intimacy issues
Resolving intimacy issues = intensive treatment
Resolving intimacy issues = trusting partner
Feeling betrayed by partner = not trusting partner, ergo not resolving intimacy issues
It was happening. We were doing it. I was reclaiming a part of my life I thought was forever lost.
So it’s not the baby, per se, but more a byproduct of trying to conceive, that led to this unfortunate situation. It would be hyperbole to say that he ruined everything forever and I’ll never have sex again, but this placed a huge obstacle of trust in a place where trust is of the utmost importance. And part of what made that violation of trust such a big deal is what I had to go through to follow through with our plan.
Ha ha, truer words never spoken. And this is definitely the largest decision we’ve ever faced.
You’re mistaken in thinking I would leave him over not wanting to have kids. Though I would almost certainly go ahead and do the Ph.D.
But nothing changed from when he made the promise to when he broke it. What realization was there? I don’t get this at all. What did he know when he gave his word that he didn’t know when he broke it? How can you be absoutely certain and committed one day, and then just do a 180 the next with no intervening change in circumstances? If a guy can swing his feelings and commitment that radically and arbitrarily from day to day, then he’s not a reliable mate, and you can’t trust his word for anything.
This wasn’t a change of mind that happened five or ten years down the line, but within a few months, and none of the external circumstances changed in the interim.
Even if you want to accept “I changed my mind” as an excuse to beak an important promise to someone you’re supposed to care about, he can’t even bother to give her the courtesy of an explanation. That’s a child, not a man.
Who’s saying he can’t express his emotions? What do his emotions have to do with honoring his word anyway?
One thing I should probably say is that while parenthood certainly changes your life, it’s not as profound and earth-shattering and radical as I think you and your husband might both be making it out to be. In terms of day to day lifestyle, it’s not really THAT big a deal, or THAT difficult or THAT melodramatic. You make adjustments, you get used to it, and it’s nowhere near as scary or as formidable as you might imagine it to be, especially if you don’t have to worry about financial and material needs. You both might be inflating the expected life-change a little more than is warranted.
He’s almost never callous or self-absorbed. He is the most receptive and sensitive-to-my-feelings guy I’ve ever known. Many people who know him in real life frequently remark on his kindness, gentleness and goodness. He is definitely an envious sort of husband to have around, because he is that awesome. He is not a selfish prick, or a douche, or an asshole.
If he were a selfish prick, he wouldn’t have moved out closer to my school of choice despite the fact that it creates a 3 hour daily commute for him. He wouldn’t have supported me financially and emotionally through years of psychological hell. He wouldn’t always be thinking about me and doing thoughtful things to make me feel good, or tell me how much he loves and admires me every day, and how lucky we are to have each other. He wouldn’t tolerate my cat, or work patiently with me to resolve heavy shit from my past. He wouldn’t worry constantly that he’s not spending enough time with me. If he was a selfish prick, he wouldn’t feel like absolute shit right now for the way I’m feeling.
He is under a lot of stress and it appears to be affecting his behavior and judgment a lot. This is a single event, an anomaly, possibly a red flag for trouble ahead, possibly a wake-up call for both of us, maybe even an indication that I need to do some serious self-reflection about my role in all this. It could be any one of those things.
But what it definitely isn’t is a bad relationship. I love him. He is human. He’s going through some shit right now. It’s cool, I went through some shit years ago and he was right there beside me. We made a commitment to tough this out, and that’s exactly what we’re going to do.
With the caveat that I shouldn’t be posting this, and I know I shouldn’t, and I don’t actually want to know what you have to say in response to this… has it ever occurred to you that when you smash those keys in a particular sequence, and type something into that little gray box, and then click the little button, that all the other names on the page correspond to real people? That when you say something about any given topic, you’re talking to, and about the lives of, other real human beings? If it has, I think you ought to really consider it a bit further.
I don’t think it’s possible that you – that anyone – could think you’re helping by coming into this thread and belittling the dude in effigy and talking about whether or not he has a dick*. Nobody could actually read the posts you’re putatively responding to, and process their meaning, and come out the other side thinking that anybody anywhere would have their life enhanced if you personally talked a lot of smack about olives’ husband, and then argued with a bunch of other posters orthogonally to the actual purpose of the thread. Look around a little bit. Reflect upon the lack of outrage, the absence of rhetorical violence in anybody else’s posts. Then look at yours. Nobody in any world anywhere could honestly say that they thought these were circumstances that really needed a good injection of vitriol and conflict. But that’s what you did.
That means, in the best case scenario, you haven’t at all considered the impact of what you’re saying. Giving you the full benefit of the doubt, that means you just didn’t think about anything you said. At best. Which still ain’t all that great. You should apologize, but, you know.
Anyway. Sorry, olives. I feel obliged to say something productive now, having contributed to the wrong side of the signal/noise ratio, but I don’t have any answers obviously. I think it’s important to understand exactly what it is that you trusted him to do, and exactly what it is that he did with respect to that trust which was not the thing you trusted him to do. Like, for instance, if you trusted him to speak up at the beginning of the process, and that’s where he really screwed up, but you also expected him to keep up a certain level of enthusiasm and support later (which obviously he didn’t), to not roll the disappointment over point B into the feeling of betrayal from point A. And, most importantly, to not find an instance of dishonesty or a violation of trust when what is there is adequately explained by your garden variety fuck-up. Both the hurt over the betrayal of trust and the disappointment over the change could be valid, but together that’s a monster, and they don’t always belong together. I’m not sure if I’m being clear enough; what I’m suggesting is that even if he really screwed up at point A, maybe he did what he had to do at point B, and it’s important to be aware of whether it’s point A or point B that’s really making you feel so awful at the moment.
And nobody wants to hear that they’re being unfair when they’ve been hurt, but also, inevitably, a lot of people are unfair when they’re hurt. I’m not saying that’s happening here; what do I know. But it can.
That was in a response to Diogenes the Cynic. He said “if you’re not ready, then don’t lie and say you are” to which I responded that I:
A: Didn’t think your husband was lying.
B: Thought your husband agreed to have a child now because he got caught up in your rainbows and unicorns.
C: Realized he wasn’t ready for a child and told you this and…
D: Thought that was a good thing because agreeing was an impulsive act.
I get that both of you have talked for several years about becoming parents but there’s a huge difference between talking about X and actually doing X. You understand that right?
Your plan, to wit:
"If he intends to convince me that he truly desires a child ‘‘someday,’’ he must take concrete steps to prove it. He must effective immediately start thinking about what it is he truly needs to feel ready, and once he identifies that thing, he needs to create a plan and commit to it once and for all. Starting in October 2010 we will have a semi-formal discussion in which he updates me on his progress. That doesn’t mean he can’t talk to me at any time, it just means we’re setting out some benchmarks to keep this on the radar screen.
If, by the time I graduate in 9 months, he is unable to identify what he needs effectively enough to be able to commit to his own plan, then he agrees to marital counseling in order for us to resolve this difference."
It strikes me as punitive. Not to mention weird as hell. This is a marriage and not an HR performance plan. And underlying all of it, whether you realize it or not, is the expectation that he’s going to change his mind and agree to have a child.
I didn’t call your husband a liar or an asshole. Those are your words not mine. Nor do/did I have anything negative to say about marital counseling. What I do think, however, is your reaction is not normal. The disappointment and hurt I get. Your weird over-analysis of everything is what I find well and totally fucked. I mean really, it changed your “conceptualization” of who he is? WTF? Can’t he just be the guy who realized he made a mistake and realized he wasn’t ready for a baby? Is that really such a terrible thing?
What do I think is more realistic? Waiting until your school, employment and location uncertainties have been settled, making sure that your desire for a child doesn’t “come from an unhealthy space” and then seeing how he feels. If he still doesn’t want a child and you still do, then you’ve got some serious questions to ask about your future together.
That said, if I were him, I wouldn’t want to have a child because of you. You don’t seem ready at all. You do, however, seem obsessive, self-involved and too enamored of the idea of a baby and not the reality of having a child. I mean, what happens if your kid disappoints you for some reason? Are you going to start a thread here explaining how your “conceptualization” of him/her has changed?
I really do wish we could lay off the personal insults of my husband. He does plan to read this thread. The very first post Dio made in this thread (which I read to him for the purpose of discussion) hurt him bad enough.
Criticizing a single instance of behavior is one thing, criticizing his entire being is another thing. If I weren’t so certain of how inaccurate these insulting statements are, I’d be pretty pissed off right now.
I’m mostly just fascinated at how threads like this are basically a kind of Rorschach test for everyone who reads them. People bring their own experiences to bear and see things through the filter of those experiences. What I find so interesting about the course of this thread is that the opinions and perspectives have been so diverse.
Well there certainly is a point here somewhere, but when Olives says amongst other things, she was ready to totally restructure her future life around the baby, which I take it was one of the intensities which “floored” her husband. ( along with the incessant baby planning), I think any guy would reappraise just what he was getting himself into. It reads like lets have a baby I really need replace you. YMMV of course
I was only talking about this incident. He acted like an asshole in this incident. He was immature in this incident. It doesn’t mean it’s all he is or that he’s irredeemable. I’ve been a complete shit to my wife at times and been able to learn from owning it when I’ve done it.
Olive;s husband, if you read this, at least make an effort to explain things, even if you think it’s not something she wants to hear. I think not giving an explanation is actually the cruelest thing you’re doing. Not intentionally maybe, but it makes things go down better if you at least try to explain your thougt processes, even if they aren’t going to sound satisfactory or are unflattering to either one of you.
By the way, I’m always hyperbolic in the way I express things, so mentally dial all my verbiage down to about a 3 instead of a 7 when you read it to get a sense of what I’m really trying to express.
Hope you feel better.