Hey Everyone-- Let's Bash the US!!!

[pennylane]

The reason for America(n)-bashing is simple - America is in the limelight. Americans rarely bash other countries because they don’t know/care about those other countries. They tend to criticise themselves (I’ve heard Americans say “America is the most racist country on Earth” which is FAR from true) and other nationalities are happy to join in. It is in part “jealousy”, perhaps, but perhaps “resentment” would be a better word. America is at the top despite all her obvious flaws!!

Here in France, for example, people are desperately afraid of somehow being overcome by American culture, which seems to be spreading at a phenomenal rate throughout the world. This may be true, but is there any reason to demand that there be a legal limit on the number of American movies released in Europe? This was one of France’s requests to the E.U. Personally, I don’t like most American blockbusters and have watched some excellent French movies (Camille Claudel, Ma Vie En Rose, La Vie Rêvée des Anges etc.) So why assume that if American movies are not kept out of Europe by law, all Europeans would rush to watch them and the French movie industry would fall by the wayside? This attitude arises from the fear that American culture will gradually become the norm. But if that’s what the masses want, you can’t really blame the Americans. All you can do is point out their deficiencies and hope for the best.

This is an excerpt from an e-mail that a friend of mine received from a French acquaintance of his:

ce qui me gene encore plus c’est qu’un mec venant d’un pays ou george bush est president…ou les publicités sont polluées par un slogan a chier " wazzaaaaaaahhh" et ou plus grave encore la plupart des americains ne savent pas placés l’europe sur une map monde!!!je suis désolé pour toi d’être born in u.s.a…mais a choisir je suis bien heureux de vivre en france ou nous baisons bouffons et fricotons a souhait dans le respect de toutes les differences grace aux trois mots qui représente notre pays “liberté fraternité égalité” nous français nous avons nos défaults on en est conscient mais nous n’avons tout de même pas la prétention d’être le pays le plus libre au monde ce qui reste à voir!
je ne suis en aucun cas nationaliste mais en voyageant un peu on se rend vite compte qu’il est bon de vire en france…
bon courage pour ta vie de tout les jours elle a l’air difficile sans hamburger et sans bush.
olivier

I won’t bother to translate it all, but it includes such choice phrases as “I’m sorry for you to be born in u.s.a”, “on travelling one quickly realises that it is good to live in France”, “good luck with your life it seems difficult without hamburger and bush”, and claims that in France all differences are respected due to the three words which represent the country - “liberty fraternity equality”. Of course the person to whom this message is addressed is not one of Bush’s supporters at all, and France is far from the goal of fraternity and equality stated in its motto - racism against the Africans and Arabs here is considered a major problem.

America is just a fun target - at once a well-known point of reference and yet an excitingly controversial one. It’s too boring to criticise Afghanistan - everyone agrees. Yet there are so many fascinating topics regarding America - gun control, death row, missile defence. And pointing out how terrible these things are only makes one feel better about oneself. I can put up with living in a tiny apartment earning a meagre fraction of what I would in Silicon Valley, if I tell myself that my risk of getting murdered or sentenced to death is so much lower here.

And as for cheese, how can you really argue? If you like camembert and brie, come to France. I prefer cheddar and red leicester myself…

[erislover]

*Originally posted by usurper *
No one bashes America more than myself. I am totally disgusted by our government, its’ illegal laws, and its system of justice. It is not the Country the Founders set up. It is the rule of the Usurpers, and by every rule in the book, “They have no right to be obeyed.”

However, in response to those who bash America from outside, on any and all issues, from every angle, and at every turn, I can only say, why is it, that every time you need someone to bail your ass out of some problem, you put your hand out. Hell, we still haven’t been paid for the second world war. We supplied almost all the armaments, and a large portion of the manpower, with the understanding that it would be repaid after the war. In fact we were paid nothing, after every country guaranteed that we would be repaid. We saved the asses, of most of the asses, who tell us our business. It is obvious that without U.S. technology, and inventions, the rest of this planet would be in sorry ass shape.[emphasis added]

Further, without the U.S. it is clear that Europe, and the messes they keep getting themselves into, not only need our guidance and help, they could not survive without it. With the mass genocides, and ethnic cleansings, I find it incredible when they call themselves civilized, and us cowboys, or unprincipled. It is U.S. standards and ideals which the entire world envys, they know it, we know it, and I know it. Bash that butthead!!

Well, everyone, looks like my question has been answered, though probably not in the fashion this poster intends.

[London_Calling]

*Originally posted by usurper *
Hell, we still haven’t been paid for the second world war. We supplied almost all the armaments, and a large portion of the manpower, with the understanding that it would be repaid after the war. In fact we were paid nothing, after every country guaranteed that we would be repaid. We saved the asses, of most of the asses, who tell us our business.
<snip>

Bash that butthead!!

Not as well researched a rant as one would hope to find in GD. I guess the idea remains to fight ignorance, even when it seems as blind as is yours.

BTW, your comments are deeply offensive.

[Gary_Kumquat]

*Originally posted by London_Calling *
BTW, your comments are deeply offensive. **

Probably more so to Americans than Europeans - would you like to be a compatriot of usurpers?

[London_Calling]

*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat *
Probably more so to Americans than Europeans - would you like to be a compatriot of usurpers?

Not if the quality of his / her postings are indicative of the schooling system. But I’ll assume he / her is an exception - and an embarrassment.

[pennylane]

I admit that usurper may sound a bit… uneducated… but I think you’re all being a bit ruthless. Of course the U.S. has never “saved” other countries, as all nations act only in their own best interests, but I think a lot of countries do benefit from the existence of the U.S. and enjoy many things which come from American shores. In fact, a lot of people complain about these very things which they enjoy.

I sympathise with any Palestinians who feel the need to burn American flags, but not with Europeans who complain about American culture while gobbling their Big Mac’s and Cokes.

Why don’t they cast out the beam in their own eyes? (Or however that Bible quote goes…)

[Gary_Kumquat]

*Originally posted by London_Calling *
Not if the quality of his / her postings are indicative of the schooling system. But I’ll assume he / her is an exception - and an embarrassment. **

Think you mean he/she, old chap

Anyway, back to the OP and I’ll sing the song one more time for the hard of thinking.

The US gets a lot of bashing from lots of countries. As does every other country. Strangely though, your local media tends to report more of “France today decried the US stance on (insert issue here)” then “France today decried Britain’s stance on (insert issue here)”, so you see yourselves as being particularly victimised.

wanders off humming Tom Lehrer’s National Brotherhood week

[London_Calling]

LOL…that’s actually worse than reading an admonishment concerning another posters grammer. It’s the dyslexia, I tell ya…Hey ho.

[kabbes]

I really hate it when the French decry our stance on insert here.

IMHO, our insert here stance is really the only reasonable position to take. Those bloody French with their Pigalle and red windmills…

pan

[pennylane]

The U.S. does get bashed more than other countries, as would any superpower. The other nations feel a sense of solidarity when they unite to criticise the dominant nation. But the U.S. itself has been guilty of this… remember the days of the “Commie bastards”?

[erislover]

It isn’t the news that gets to me, it is the people I talk to who have so very many prejudices about America and Americans that I have a hard time even effectively communicating something as simple as “I actually like hamburgers” without having to get into some debate about how meat should be prepared and Americans are “common” or what have you. It really makes me want to pop them one and say “Well, you can tack rude and isolationist onto it too.” I mean, what the fuck. We’re only a country of over 250 million people… surely there’s a bit of cultural diversity there even if you don’t care to admit it.

A Frenchman would call Sweden’s quirks cultural, but America’s quirks as stupidity, ignorance, arrogance, or some such insult (not to pick on the French per se, but these things help if you put some solid variables in place).

Does anyone not get this feeling? America isn’t really an independent country with its own culture, its a garbage dump for washed out ideas. I’m telling you, that is seriously the impression I get from foreigners, and even when they are trying to be nice about it. Its like it is so ingrained in their thought that Americans are-- well, whatever Americans are-- that they can’t even see passed it.

I dunno, maybe I need to associate with more people, but the results I have had so far are not very encouraging.

[Gorgon_Heap]

I’d like to stay away from policy here and avoid actually naming countries, as that appears to be a means by which others might argue back with a more personal bias.

How about we look at this in a more generalized sense.

The U.S. (America, let’s not forget, is something of a misnomer for the lazy man who forgets there is more than one country on this continent) is, historically speaking, still the new kid on the block (man, I’m sorry for bringing that one up). The vast majority of nations are far older than we are … they have much more history to look back on, and have learned from many centuries of mistakes. The U.S. came along with bright new ideas from age-old concepts, and has, in my opinion, done remarkably well making it all work.

The U.S. attained its industrial might after twice being sucked into massive foreign wars (ignoring the war material to Japan thing). And, after the resolution of said wars, came out ahead in a stalemate with the other major power at the time.

One reason for this might have been something we usually overlook; how much suffering did the U.S. and its people go through during the wars? Well, we lost a lot of soldiers, but we weren’t invaded or bombed or anything. To most other countries it looks like we came out scot clean.

All these reasons should understandably be hard to swallow for countries and peoples with histories between two and four times what we have. They may be wondering when the inevitable might befall us.

When will we lose our “Spanish fleet”? When will we be invaded by powerful and supposed “allies”? When will we begin to sag benieth the weight of our own beaurocracy?

Or have we already?

[yojimbo]

*Originally posted by pennylane *
but not with Europeans who complain about American culture while gobbling their Big Mac’s and Cokes.

So if I eat English Mustard I can’t complain about anything to do with the UK? Why should the fact that I like some goods that come from any country mean that I can’t voice my concern/complaints about aspects of that countries culture?

[pennylane]

*Originally posted by yojimbo *
**

*Originally posted by pennylane *
but not with Europeans who complain about American culture while gobbling their Big Mac’s and Cokes.

So if I eat English Mustard I can’t complain about anything to do with the UK? Why should the fact that I like some goods that come from any country mean that I can’t voice my concern/complaints about aspects of that countries culture? **

No, sure you can complain about the UK, but I would think it pretty hypocritical if you complained about the way English food is spreading all over the world when English cuisine is so horrible. That is really the way some people behave, without realising it.

But take heart, erislover, the only reason people ridicule and mock America is because of America’s growing influence over the rest of the world. You can go to any country of the world and people will know where you come from. You will always find fans of American actors, bands, and sports personalities everywhere you go. Whereas when I tell people where I’m from they ask if it’s a country or a city.

[TwistofFate]

However, in response to those who bash America from outside, on any and all issues, from every angle, and at every turn, I can only say, why is it, that every time you need someone to bail your ass out of some problem, you put your hand out.

wank.

Hell, we still haven’t been paid for the second world war. We supplied almost all the armaments, and a large portion of the manpower, with the understanding that it would be repaid after the war. In fact we were paid nothing, after every country guaranteed that we would be repaid. We saved the asses, of most of the asses, who tell us our business. It is obvious that without U.S. technology, and inventions, the rest of this planet would be in sorry ass shape.[emphasis added]

L_C handled this. May I add to his rebuttal, the word “Wank”.

Further, without the U.S. it is clear that Europe, and the messes they keep getting themselves into, not only need our guidance and help, they could not survive without it.

You be real brainy. Did your momma feed you dictionaries or sumpthin’? Do you seriously think that when something goes wrong we sit around collectively going “Uh-ohh, spagetti-oh!!” and waiting for the US to provid a solution?
Wank.

With the mass genocides, and ethnic cleansings, I find it incredible when they call themselves civilized, and us cowboys, or unprincipled.

May I just add, Wank.
::cough:: native Americans… ::chough:: Mass genocide… ::chough:: Ethnic Cleansing…

It is U.S. standards and ideals which the entire world envys, they know it, we know it, and I know it.

U.S. standards? Democracy is Greek, the Automobile was invented by a German and your county is historiccally full of Immigrants.

bash that butthead!!

[funaki]
INDEED!
[/funaki]

[rjung]

*Originally posted by pennylane *
Americans rarely bash other countries because they don’t know/care about those other countries.

Actually, I would posit that Americans often bash other countries because they don’t know/care much about them. You can find numerous examples of this pattern in this thread alone…

[gobear]

I am second to none in my patriotism, but **usurper’s ** historical ignorance and lack of tact make me embarrassed to call him a fellow American.

First, the US did not fight WWII singlehanded. Had it not been for the brave RAF pilots who fought off the Luftwaffe in 1940, preventing an amphibious invasion of Britain, the US might have been forced to accept a Nazi Europe. In addition, we have the British to thank for winning the critical battle of El Alamein in North Africa, halting Rommel’s desert troops. We also had the Free French, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the USSR, and other nations allied with us to defeat the Axis. Contrary to WWII movies, we didn’t win the war alone.

Second, the ideals the US espouses are often nobler than the reality of its diplomacy. For example, at the negotiations of the Treaty of Portsmouth that ended the Russo-Japanese war in 1905, the US and Japan established spheres of dominance in Asia, giving the US a free hand with the Phillipines while Japan was promised no interference in the annexation of Korea. During the 1930s, when the civil rights of German Jews were being abolished, the US did nothing. At the end of WWII, the US helped the European colonial powers reestablish control over nations that had asked for our help to achieve their freedom, earning the US a great deal of enmity from future third-world rulers. In the 1960s, the US helped Mobutu hunt down and kill Patrice Lumumba, a leader of great promise whose crime was that he appeared to be soft of communism and adamant in making outside interests pay fair royalties to the Congolese government for mining rights. Moreover, to paraphrase Dr. Samuel Johnson, it’s hypocritical for a nation that advertises itself to be the freest on earth to have practiced de jure racial segregation for the majority of the 20th century and to practice de facto economic racial segregation now.

But European Dopers need not look so superior. May I mention Amritsar 1919, Belgian rule of the Congo under Leopold II, French collaboration with the Holocaust, and so on. Every nation is guilty of crimes against others, sadly.

Third, it’s easy to pick on America because we are the most powerful nation in the world at the moment, and the weak often resent the strong. Britain was resented in the 19th century, America is resented now, and I’m sure China will be the nation to hate in 2100.

[MysterEcks]

China Guy said:

Do you think the changes to get into WTO were insignificant.

I think that would fit my qualifier–“as opposed to trying to look nicer when they want something from foreign countries[.]” In other words, I make a distinction between concessions to get something and concessions just to appease other people who don’t like your policies.

Speaking of the spy plane incident…I think it would be safe to say that most foreign opinion was that the crew should be released–wouldn’t you agree? Yet the Chinese held onto them to force a fake apology–hostages for a public ass-kissing, as it were.

[erislover]

*Originally posted by Gorgon Heap *
How about we look at this in a more generalized sense.

How about we look at this in a more specific sense.

The U.S. (America, let’s not forget, is something of a misnomer for the lazy man who forgets there is more than one country on this continent)

What do you mean by that?

[Fern_Forest]

*Originally posted by clairobscur *
**Sorry for the bold characters…I messed up something… **

No problem. Boy I should post here unless I try and visit more often. I was trying to make it rough and quick since most people know enough about the systems. Really I was making a counter-point to the person who Feynn who seemed to hold great pride in the fact that their “big cheese” was …

smacks head damn!! Misunderstood what he was saying. Not that their electee took his position in 1 day, but that there election was finished in 1 day. :o Nothing like arguing against no one in particular sigh

*Originally posted by clairobscur *
**

I like eris’ comment. But I look around this world and all I see are countries being extremely proud of histories that are nothing short of being chock-full with self interest.
**

I’m not really convinced. Here at least (and in my understanding in other west european countries, with, for some reason, the possible exception of Spain), expressing one’s proudness in one’s country, or obvious displays of patriotism tend to be frowned upon and considered with deep suspicion as hinting to an extreme-right political agenda.

I don’t mean that the average european, guts-driven, will never try to prove that his country is better than some foreign interlocutor’s country. But on the overall, in everyday life, in ordinary conversation, nationalism is out of place, and I would say, not really politically correct.

This could, by the way, explain partially why something which would appear to an american as a banal expression of patriotism could be interpreted by an european reader unnacustomed to them as an unbearable display of arrogance.

Thinking twice, I believe that paradoxally bashing another country would more acceptable (than expressing proudness of his own), and is certainly more common.Of course, it will still be frowned upon, with one exception…yes, you guessed it, american bashing is usually perfectly accepted. **

I don’t know. It seems as though my statement was quite mild, actually 2 mild statements. A lot more mild that I had intended too.

1. A lot of countries are proud about histories.
2. A lot of those histories are full of self-interest.

Self-interest itself being neither good or bad. It depends on it’s usage. What I had intended to say was the citizens of … well basically all countries tend to white wash their history in order to be proud of it. An American might wax nostalgic about the Revolutionary period forgetting of course that a huge many Americans were slaves. British might wax nostalgic about the 19th century and their great empire, overlooking the effect on the Irish, Indian and other nationalities.

*Originally posted by London_Calling *
**

*Originally posted by Gary Kumquat *
Probably more so to Americans than Europeans - would you like to be a compatriot of usurpers?

Not if the quality of his / her postings are indicative of the schooling system. But I’ll assume he / her is an exception - and an embarrassment. **

I agree and I’m pretty sure he is. One of those songs that gives me goosebumps is Sink the Bismark by Johnny Horton. Well we wont go into this here.

*Originally posted by erislover *
**

*Originally posted by Gorgon Heap *
How about we look at this in a more generalized sense.

How about we look at this in a more specific sense.

The U.S. (America, let’s not forget, is something of a misnomer for the lazy man who forgets there is more than one country on this continent)

What do you mean by that? **

Well … there is a continent North America and a continent South America. So yes there are many North Americans in North America and South Americans in South America. But we’ve been called “the Americans” for more then 300 years both by us and other many other people. But this is really a debate for another thread. And should be debated there.
[sup]wow, my longest post ever![/sup]