Hey Everyone-- Let's Bash the US!!!

Great Debates
101

**You lost me - as in, who cares for their opinion? You mean, outside of those Islamic people who are influenced by Libya, Cubans who are influenced by Castro, and the other people with an interest in the foreign policies of those countries?

You’re missing the point, I think. A lack of democracy is characterised by, amongst other things, power beings transferred between those people who have some sort of link. In Syria, the son of Assad inherited the reigns. For those people in countries which are not familiar with the democratic process, they see a parallel between the power-gaining process of the US and Syria by reference to the results.

What could you do to prevent it - stop people related to a past president running for power? Of course not. But its looks odd, to say the least, to those people not familiar with democratic processes.

**Sensitive in the sense of not liking to be criticized, sure, and Asian democracies may well have regard for foreign opinion. But my example was China–if you have evidence that the PRC government changes its policies due to foreign opinion (as opposed to trying to look nicer when they want something from foreign countries, which isn’t the same thing), then I’d like to see it. **
[/QUOTE]

**
How is it not the same thing? If it is the same thing, I have a lot of examples for you.

102

Just having re-read some of the posts above, I find it amazing how Westerners underestimate the efforts of the Russians in their “Great Patriotic War”. They pushed the Germans all the way back to Berlin, entering the city before the Allies.

I had always understood the North Africa campaign as the principal effort to prevent the Germans from having unrestricted access to Middle Eastern oil fields. A stalling action to enable the US war machine to get going…? Are you reading American history books?

I’m also a bit amused by the reliance by US citizens upon their achievements in a war which occurred 60 years ago. As an Australian citizen, I’m sure glad that the US stopped the Japanese at the Battle of the Coral Sea from going further south, in an academic, remote sort of way.

Getting back to OP, its the reaction of people like usurper which make America-bashing so much fun. The otherwise admirable patriotism and pride which so unites Americans also makes them big fat sensitive targets. When I have teased citizen of England, Holland, New Zealand, or even Japan (a very proud country) about their respective home countries, I get an amused reaction, usually some sort of sarcastic crack in response. Americans, on the other hand, can get as huffy and defensive as the French.

103

“That’s it!!!” (throws down)

I don’t think I have ever seen someone be successful in drawing a connection between French and American habits, and I can assure you that neither of us are pleased.

But I AM amused :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley: Jerry Lewis, now this?!?

104

LOL. But its true!

The Chinese note with wry amusement that their country looks like a goat. You’d rarely hear an American saying that their flag looks overly cluttered and busy.

105

Dave: You’re right - teasing Americans is fun (though I’m very partial to the Kiwi/sheep connection), but teasing someone about overblown arrogance and outright bashing of a nation are different things, aren’t they? I don’t think any country gets taken to task nearly as much as the US - why is it that they have to meet impossibly high ideals that do not apply to any other country?

106

Possibly because, especially in the rhetoric used by politicians and other Americans who inhabit the world stage, the US holds itself up as the exemplar of high ideals. If you’re going to make the claim, you have to be prepared to take it on the chin when action fails to live up to words.

And when i say ‘you’, i don’t mean all Americans. As has been amply demonstrated on this thread, there are many in the US who are sometimes embarrassed by the ego-driven bullshit spouted by their leaders, and who are happy for the US to be held accountable for its mistakes.

Probably the most common mistake made by outsiders discussing the US is the assumption that everyone who lives here thinks the same way.

107

I think the word you’re looking for is jingoism, Guin.

108

Let me point out that the Russians bore the brunt of World War II in the European Theater–not the US, not the Brits, the Russians. And, for that matter, if Britain had fallen it would have been virtually impossible for the US to do much in Europe–D-Day-scale invasions across the Atlantic just wouldn’t have worked. Claiming the US won the war all by itself–or even mostly by itself–is ridiculous.

TwistofFate said:

Oh come on–a couple air strikes and a tank charge, and Gengis is finished.

Dave Stewart said:

As in, they detest us and are going to bash us anyway, and admirers of theirs are going to feel the same way regardless, so who cares?

I suppose if you want to frame it that way, we were going to have that perception no matter who won. The other major candidate was the incumbent Vice President, after all, which might have been even worse–just would have been same people keeping power.

I should probably point out that this isn’t the first time we’ve had a president related to a former president. John Quincy Adams (sixth president) was the son of John Adams (second president); Benjamin Harrison (23rd president) was the grandson of William Henry Harrison (ninth president); Franklin D. Roosevelt (32nd president) was a cousin of Theodore Roosevelt (26th president). So George and George W. are by no means unique.

It’s the difference between taking foreign opinion into account in policies and using policies as a negotiating chip. The Chinese government, as far as I know, does not give a rip for other people’s opinions except insofar as doing so will gain them something concrete–they don’t even particularly care about international goodwill, as the incident with the spyplane crew shows, unless it can get them something like the Olympics.

But if there are actually examples of Chinese TV and newspaper commentators discussing foreign criticism and advocating that such criticism be listened to by the PRC government, then I would have to stand corrected.

109

mhendo said

I think the mockery doesn’t come from failing to live up to the standards it sets itself. Thinking about it, I think its because it exports so much of its consumerable media culture. No other country does this (to the same extent, anyway), and so no other country leaves itself open to such criticism. Further, films and TV are necessarily superficial things, capable of easy access. People get the idea that this represents US culture. It does, but not to any depth. Its meant for consumption by people wanting some escapism on a Friday night: its not intended to give the world a sense of what the US is about.
And so you then get such abyssmally jingoistic films like Pearl Harbour, which purport to tell the story of an important piece of American history. That film has prompted more America-bashing than I’ve heard since the Gulf War. The US saves the world in Armageddon and in Independence Day from evil aliens. It all gets a bit tiresome if you’re not an American, and might make you wonder if the US has a great inferiority complex which its trying to overcome by such films - but that misses the point. Each film is just fluff intended for casual, American movie goers. Its not meant to be the face of America.
US policy as delivered as sound bites doesn’t give a full picture either.

Guess I’m blaming the media.

110

Myster Ecks

South China Morning Post editorial, 29 August 2001, advocating an introduction of an anti-discrimination law in Hong Kong.

But of course even though HK is now part of the PRC, the HK press have guaranteed freedom which I assume the mainland press greatly lacks. Most governmental criticism in the press, as I understand it, of the PRC comes from within the PRC, not from advocating foreigners’ perspectives. I am puffing a little bit now because I have just run up from our library to see if we keep the China Daily, a mainland English language newspaper, but we don’t. I’ll buy a few copies over the next few days and get back to you.

In any event, are saying that the US and the PRC should have the same yardstick when it comes to accepting foreign criticism?

111

Huh? What did I miss in elementary school geography class? Last time I checked, Canada was the largest country in North America.

112

[SOAPBOX]
Okay, MysterEcks…

WW2 was won by the U.S. with alot of help from our friends. I’ll not argue about the high cost the Russians paid in WW2 (I’d lose that debate).

Let me point out that the U.S. was also deeply involved in the Pacific theater against an extremely skilled and tenacious enemy. (Thanks for the assist, Australia, New Zealand, & China.) Though the island-hopping campaign in that theater never matched the scale of the Normandy invasion, the U.S. Marines invaded numerous fortified islands from much greater distances than the little hop across the English Channel. Mounting an ocean-spanning D-Day would have been daunting and I shudder to think of the logistical nightmare it would have been, but I don’t view it as “virtually impossible”.

No American with any sense would claim the US won the war all by itself. That is ridiculous. On the other hand, without the unprecedented manufacturing might of the U.S., our European allies would most certainly have LOST and all of Europe would be speaking German today. The fact that the U.S. got involved in WW2 when it did sealed the fate of Nazi Germany. One might even argue that Germany’s defeat can be attributed to Japan for their part in drawing the U.S. into the war.
[/SOAPBOX]
In response to the OP: The U.S. gets bashed because Americans are, in general, arrogant bastards and have been that way ever since George Washington’s army thumped the finest military machine of the 18th century. To this day, we continue to count on such flukes, and the rest of the world hates us because (so far) lady luck is still smiling at us. Rome fell - not to outside conquerors, but from its own excesses and corruption. Since history seems to repeat itself, I expect someday that the U.S. will also be a victim of its own flaws.

113

But we didn’t, not without the help of the French and Spanish and their involvement in struggles in Europe and in America.

Besides that, I think that the media affair may be part of something here. Like, the part. Their distortions are what keeps many countries’ citizens abreast of other countries’ citizens. And we get the wrong impression, and attack. Which only puts people on the defensive. Ah, vicious circle!

114

Ignorance of other cultures is one of the major culprits here. It is so easy to bash something that is foreign to you: Europeans bash Americans, Americans bash the French (almost exclusively). Then they meet, person-to-person, talk, and realize that the other person isn’t so bad after all.

Unfortunately, that realization is not usually expanded to include the larger entity.

So a European might say “Americans suck, although I met this one nice guy once who actually seemed pretty knowledgable about the world and even spoke my language. But he’s not like all the others.”

Americans hear about the Academie Française refusing to admit a word like “weekend” to the French language, for fear of polluting it, and decide that all French people are language snobs (and culture snobs and cheese and wine snobs etc). But the Americans don’t necessarily speak French and almost certainly don’t speak it on a regular basis with francophones. If they did, they would know that l’Academie be damned, French people use the word weekend. And they eat at McDo’s. And they LIKED the last Schwartzenegger (sp?) movie.

Good thing forums like this exist, where these debates take place and we can enlighten each other.

And, erislover, about the America debate: America is not a country. I’m sorry, but it isn’t. The United States of America is. You may be an American for lack of a better term, but you come from the United States of America.

115

I am, quite simply, going to take you to task for this.

“Americas” as a geographic location is useless in trying to describe persons. As such, when one says “Asian” do you think russian? do you also think that China and japan have similar culture? What about Canada and the US? Mexico and the US? By your post’s implication we certainly would. After all, we are all American!

But we are not, I’m afraid. Most of us are good enough to realize that the political society which declares geographic borders is what contributes more to the citizen than what the world may call a particular continent (again-- Asia and Europe anyone?)

It is, IMO, a twist of fate that the western hemisphere is called the Americas. But that changes nothing; as a descriptive phrase that implies anything more than geographic location, the only way to successfully interpret “American” is with reference to some nation-state (namely, the USA).

Your counter? :wink:

116

Lets face facts about WW 1 /2.

It was not in the USA’s interest to have a 'large and powerful ’ germany and this is why they ‘saved’ europe.

It was also not in the USAs interest to have a Europe overtaken by the USSR which is why they were in NATO.

Countries in general operate for their ‘own’ interest.

People bash the USA for several reasons, many without foundation and forget that their own country acts for their own interest as well.

Which ever country you go to you will find people you like / hate just as you do in your own country, countries are mainly just lines on a map. We are, after all, all human.

then again… what do i know ?

117

To TwistofFate
Your quote:
U.S. standards? Democracy is Greek, the Automobile was invented by a German and your county is historically full of Immigrants.

Constitutional Democracy is American, as in the FIRST. As for inventions and immigrants see the small list later in this post.

Your Quote
When you state that something is a fact, you better be able to back that up
My quote:

I saw a couple of posted items relating to Americans being some sort of collection of low lifes from the world cesspool, people who were not fit for the rest of the world. As I remember it, we are the people who the Europeans persecuted for religious beliefs, or forced from their lands by governments gone mad. We were forced to seek a new life from those educated and holier than thou Kings and Dictators who blazed a trail of blood and misery across Europe for the last 2000 years

Who were the Pilgrims, the Puritans, and the people from the debt prisons? The persecution from the Church of England against all other religions was a fact. The penalty was death in many cases. Fact enough?

My quote:
If the Western European nations, did not need U.S. firepower, munitions, or support personnel, how come you made one of our Generals the guy in charge? Seems to me that allowing a foreign commander to take charge of your fighting forces indicates you needed some kind of help.

Your Quote:
who said that we didn’t need your help? No one on this thread.

Perhaps not, what the contributors to this tread did say or imply was —that I stated that America won the second world war. Not So. What I did say, AGAIN, was that we saved the ass of Western Europe, with our production of armaments, and superior military ability. Although not in those exact words. No where have I ever claimed that the U.S. defeated the Axis powers alone. (Another fact)

As for my quotes from the movie Stripes dude…

The movie was a comedy, the quote was intended as somewhat of a joke about American diversity of population, and their abilities to come together in times of crisis. (Another fact about the U.S.) The postings here keep trying to put unstated words into my mouth, in an effort to squash my opinions. Some of the reasons are, I come on strong(my fault), they fail to read, or assume my meanings.(Their fault)

As for your stated items I believe you are trying to post the engraved words on the statue of liberty when you wrote:
Your quote:
Not quite “Tired and Hungry masses waiting to be free”, is it?

It should be obvious that the statue of liberty does not refer to feeling the cold nose of a mutt. Are you getting any of this? You know, feel his cold nose, and we are the mutts of the world. Da!!!
As for Genghis Kahn… I believe that the U.S. Armed forces might be a more sophisticated fighting force, at any level, over the hoards of Mongolia. In my humble opinion they could beat them with their own weapons, on a battlefield today. Just the advances in military strategy, and techniques of hand to hand fighting would be more than enough dude!!!

As for relying on “Stripes” perhaps YOU should know what YOU are talking about.

To Lonesomepolecat,

I realize you may not have read the original post so just remember I never said we won this war by ourselves. You are right about quarterbacks though, and so was my original post.

So this tread may continue with its objective I will give you a plethora, of items to bash.
Yesterday I learned of the great inventive minds in Europe. I learned how the U.S. is such a self-centered, unsophisticated society. How much we don’t understand, world opinion on the situations WE create.

I just thought I would stop by to list a small portion of American inventions and conributions. Since we have only been around for a couple hundred years you will have to realize we do not have that many important contribution to mankind. I will try to find a few, but I think I may have a problem out doing the entire continent of Europe.

The Airplane, lightbulb, phonograph, telegraph, telephone, atomic bomb, radar systems, aircraft landing systems, radio directional finders, high band frequency modulation(FM), transistors, radio-frequency mass spectrometer, wave translation system, vaccine for hepatitis, Isothiocyanate compounds, Gasoline, Electrophotography, Tetracycline, Vacuum Tube, Bus control systems for peripheral processing devices, Space telegraphy, dry roll film and hand held cameras, Stroboscope, motion picture projector, alkaline batteries, fluoroscope, virtually every major item in the computer industry, including the computer itself, The television system, LCD, transmission system, and auto assembly line, discharge device, and metal vapor lamp, Video tape system, control mechanisms for rockets, improvements in India- rubber, Lasers, Pacemakers, Manufacture of Aluminum, Microwave tube, Variable Frequency Oscillation Generator, Manufacture of Titanium, the Cyclotron, X-Ray system, Morse code, Vinyl, Television receiver, Teflon, Electroacoustic transducer, Helicopter, Ship gyroscope, Nuclear reactor, Space shuttle, weapon systems, targeting devices, smart bombs, surgical bombing, MIRV’s, Constitutional democracy, The Internet, Air conditioning, Nylon, MRI,s Artificial Heart, Artificial Kidney, Machine Gun, Space Telescope, Fiber Optics, Supersonic flight, Steamboats, Planetary observers, rovers, and landing probes, encryption coding, radar scrambling, stealth technology, HDTV, Baseball, Football, Basketball, Aircraft Carriers, Trans Atlantic flight, Solar Panel, Geiger counter, The Bra, Animation, Polaroid Camera, Car Radio, Binary Circuits, Cotton Gin, the Peach, Screw Propeller, and…

My hands are tired, can you type for awhile?

The American inventions in pharmaceuticals alone, has saved the lives of more people, then the contributions of every other nations since the dawn of time,-- COMBINED. American technology, and its inventors have contributed more to this planets ability to communicate and process information, then all nations in history,—COMBINED.

I think it is fair to say, as we watch the nations of the world, bash us and tell us what stupid and uneducated fools we are, we ignore them. As these people use the technology we invented, the financial aid we give them, and the medicines and miracles we create, I find that these bashers have never acknowledged us for anything. Nor have they considered the thought, that our technology and open society have given them a direct look into the workings of our nation. We air our dirty laundry before the world, so all can see. I think it is safe to say no country is more open in showing its’ mistakes and its’ achievements. Next time a friend of family member is saved by medicine, or technology allows you to enjoy the gifts of life, simply ask yourself, where did this come from.

I am sure you will find a way to bash my post as well. I will continue to enjoy my status as uneducated, and culturally repugnant. You know why? Because when a fool wins an argument he shows he is not what people thought, when the intelligent win an argument, they are simply “bashing” the fool. I look forward to being humilated by the enlightened of this forum. Someday!!

118

One other thing,

The last election was one of the darkest days in the history of this nation. Opinions abound, but facts are facts. It is being said that the five justices of the Supreme Court, not only overstepped their Constitutional authority, they knew they were doing it when they did. I tend to agree with this idea.

A saw an interview by an author concerning this matter, but can not remember the author or book. Does anyone here know which book I am referring too? It explains the reason for how the court knew they were committing illegal acts. (the majority) It also not only called for their removal from the bench, it called for prosecution for crimes against the people’s Constitutional rights. It was a great interview, I would like to read this book.

119

And I’m willing to bet I’ve met more then the average person. I’ve only met one person who was outright hostile towards America. He was a Canadian who sat through dinner bitching and moaning about how much America sucked compared to Brazil. After about 30 minutes of this I became the Ugly American. I mean this SOB was sitting at my table eating my damn turkey and insulting my country all at the same time.

As I said he was the only person I met who did that.

Marc

120

**

Hot damn! If that’s one of our darkest days then what a bright spotless history we must have.

**

You agree with this idea. Does that make it fact?

Well I’m convinced.

Marc