Hey Lawyers! (Tips on Law School Admission)

[Max_Torque]

*Originally posted by Gadarene *
In your experience, to what degree are the various components of admission weighted? In other words, does the LSAT count significantly more than undergraduate transcripts, or are essays the main thing, or what? Like I said, I’m shaky on the transcript my first few years, but I’m pretty confident I can ace the test and essays. Nothing to it, right?

Each school weighs them differently, so I can’t really give you a flat percentage or anything. If your grades are great but your LSAT is mediocre, the admissions folks might think that you have a good work ethic but aren’t the sharpest knife in the drawer. If your LSAT is great but you have mediocre grades, they’ll likely think you have a sharp mind but tend to blow off schoolwork. Low grades are, I think, easier to explain and get by with than a low LSAT; I explained mine in a paragraph of my essay by relating the story of my last semester as an Electrical Engineering major. Because my grades were good in my degree subjects and because the class that killed my grades was Differential Equations (advanced math class totally unrelated to my eventual degree), I recalculated my GPA to show a more accurate portrayal of my abilities and included that in my essay.

Which brings me to another point: your essay is the one thing that will distinguish you from other applicants of equal ability. If you’re a borderline candidate on scores alone, the essay can make or break you. Take it very seriously, write many drafts, and work on it over a period of months. Books on graduate or law essays will have additional specific advice.

As someone noted earlier, a good lawyer must have good communication skills, so writing ability is a major plus. In case you didn’t know, one portion of the LSAT is a writing sample, usually just a few paragraphs addressing a hypothetical situation in about 30 minutes. It’s not scored, but a copy of your writing sample is sent to every school to which you send your LSAT scores. Remember those techniques that you learned in high school English, and use them well.

[Gadarene]

Wow.

This is wonderful, y’all; thanks so much. I’m printing this thread out as I type.

Let me clarify my ambitions, past law school and past a clerkship. I don’t believe that I want to practice law; xtnjohnson, your cautions about the utility of constitutional law are well-heeded.

My desire not to practice could change in the future, of course–if it does, I’ve got a first cousin who heads up a large firm in New York. They do good work, in my estimation, having taken on Dow in the breast implant class action suit and represented the plaintiffs in an asbestos class action. I think I’d be able to find work there.
Otherwise, I’d like to use my law degree in the realm of public policy, working either within the system in Washington or as part of an NGO. Failing that, I’d like to teach and write–there’s something about constitutional law that fascinates me, specifically when relating it to democratic theory, and I respect the heck out of essayists like Leonard Levy, Lewis Lapham, and Ben Barber who can present complicated ideas in an eminently readable manner (maybe I just respect the heck out of the alliteration in their names). I’m not interested in the money–really. I just want to examine the way the world works so I can set about making it better.

So I’ll take to heart the admonitions about the importance of the LSATs; I’m taking them in October and I’ll start studying now. I think I’ll do well, so long as I can stop those logical reasoning problems from periodically kicking my ass (in the practice tests I’ve taken so far, I’ve found I have a tendency to read too much into the answers of a question. I usually consider (what turns out to be) the correct answer first, then think, “Naw, that’s too simple.” Then I choose one that I feel answers the question more completely, but which requires more subtlety. After seeing the right answer in the back of the book, I can usually grudgingly admit to myself that it made more direct sense. :)).

I’m more sanguine about my prospects on the essays. I got into Duke on the strength of my essays then, and Lord knows I can write far better now. Obviously the standards’ll be higher, but I’m still not that worried. grin

Again, thanks to everyone for their advice. Does any of it change since I don’t want to actually practice law?

[OxyMoron]

My advice doesn’t change much, just be very sure to get your finances in order and keep debt from becoming a primary motivator; I’ve seen a lot of folks with public-interest focuses get sidetracked for years because of the debt burden, and then get sidetracked for years more because in the interim they’ve got used to a certain lifestyle. Do look into repayment programs; do consider good public schools; do look into scholarships.

Of course, the best way to become an academic is to do extremely well at a top school, and you’ll notice that that’s also the way to become a Supreme Court clerk. (Although also note that it has little, if anything, to do with becoming a Supreme Court Justice.)

A very, very harsh reality: If you don’t get into a top school, you’re going to have to adjust your ambitions. Law is absolutely prestige-obsessed, since it’s the only way people can try to measure “quality.”

Now, on the application bit. I still believe the LSAT counts on top, a matrix of grades and school next, and then everything else somewhere below. To be sure, the essays can only help (especially in explaining what happened on grades), but since reading them requires effort I’m not sure how many schools examine them for any detail other than the abilty to construct a subject-verb-object sentence. I’m skeptical mainly because of some of the appalling writing I’ve seen from law students and baby lawyers who’ve come out of the top schools. Your skills, however, will be highly valued because of their increasing rarity in a post-literate age. (end pretentiousness/portentiousness)

So crack the Barron’s book. I did fine without a course, but I’d also taken so damn many standardized tests by the time I sat for the LSAT that I probably didn’t really need one. By all means, take one if you’re not happy with your practice scores. Oh, and I found that one’s actual score seemed to be inversely proportional to the confidence with which one exited the test. I thought I’d bombed; a (highly annoying) classmate thought she’d aced. Of course, in a moment of divine justice, she didn’t even get into her home-state law school. Schadenfreude is one of my favorite words… <g>

[Maeglin]

This advice has also been extremely useful for me. Thank you one and all for replying in so much detail.

I graduated Columbia in May, and am considering applying to law school either for next fall or for the year after that. My background is in history and classics, and I took on a heavy load these past four years. My grades are good but not outstanding, but I have almost five years worth of credit.

Anyway, my interests are also in constitutional law. Right now I am working for a constitutional liberties activist group and getting some solid experience fighting in the trenches. Are schools looking for candidates with more worldly experience or do they prefer them fresh out of college? If they like experience, what kind of experience would you suggest? To be honest, I am not interested in being a paralegal; a friend of mine went that route and suffered for it. I am thinking more along the lines of public interest groups, activism, etc. Any good ideas?

Regards,
MR

[Gazoo]

Boy, did anyone else notice the length of most of the responses in this thread? Lawyers! Always thinking they get paid by the word!! :ducks and covers:

Seriously, law school is a challenge, a commitment, and very costly. About halfway through my second year I realized that I didn’t really want to practice law (at least not in the fashion I thought I did when I entered). Luckily, my work experience prior to getting my law degree allowed me to reenter my previous field, now with quite a leg up on others. I deal a lot with lawyers everyday (both friend and foe), and my legal education not only allows me to keep up with what they are talking about, but also to recognize when a lawyer is trying to “bully” someone who he/she doesn’t realize has a law degree.

[Dinsdale]

I think xtnjohnson’s 1st post puts it well. Until you have practiced law, you really don’t know what it is like. Same probably holds true for most professions. I don’t know many folks who find hours in the law library or attending routine motion calls thrilling, and that is a lot of what most new grads do.

Re clerking for the Supremes, the only person I personally know who held this job went to U of Illinois undergrad, then Michigan law school. I’m certain Harvard, Yale migfht be an advantage, but not necesarily required. Seem to recall several U of Chicago grads held this position. Not sure how that school ranks at present. Probably pretty high.

Beware of aiming too high. There are very few of the most desirable jobs, and much competition for them. (Hell, there’s quite a bit of competition even for some pretty dreary, lowpaid law jobs.) If not the Supremes, you could go worse than the Courts of Appeals, federal district courts, or the State system.

My suggestion is to try to figure out the best school you can go to that will allow you to graduate with the least possible debt. I consider myself very fortunate that I was able to graduate from U of Illinois law school with no debt (teaching assistantships, part-time jobs, etc.) Meanwhile, my buddy down the hall who makes about the same as me will not pay off his private school loans for some time.

Law is a job, just like any other. Don’t romanticize it. You can make a decent buck at it, but the folk who make the really big bucks lead lifestyles I would not want for any amount of money. And there are a number of lawyers who are, for lack of a better term, basically aggressive dishonest pricks, both in transactions and litigation. And those are the people your job will require that you deal with regularly.

IMO, in-house coproration counsel and government (especially fed) jobs offer better lefestyle than private firms, tho admittedly less $ and lower top end. I also know the bottom end of the private sector has some pretty godawful jobs, e.g. associate for a collections firm, etc. - low pay, terrible hours, no job security, etc.

I’m not a convert of the do something else with a law degree theory. If you are going to do something else, why not get an advanced degree in that? Law school ain’t exactly 3 years of fun (tho it is not as nearly as painful as many make out. Of course, I was not at the top of my class.) And it ain’t cheap.

I personally do not know any lawyers who are offended by lawyer jokes. My wife teaches business law, and gives extra credit to any student who can bring in a lawyer joke she hasn’t heard before.