Hey! Let's ban advertising!

Libertarian said,

Well, from what I’ve learned about libertarianism so far, I’d much sooner become a libertarian than a conservative.

Libertarian also said,

Taken to an extreme, of course. Nobody’s wants to ban all potentially harmful objects. People are going to figure out ways to get themselves killed even if you lock them in padded cells. But the line should be drawn somewhere. Maybe not at fireworks. But perhaps at dynamite, where the potential for mayhem far outweighs the object’s usefulness to civilians. Plus, you can kill a whole lot of people with dynamite, as opposed to toilet bowl cleaner.

Would laws against behavior be any more effective than laws against objects in the case of fireworks? I can only guess that banning fireworks would be more effective at stopping fires than banning the unsafe use of fireworks simply by virtue of the fact that a firework ban would be much easier to enforce. But is it worth restricting individual freedoms? Maybe not in the case of fireworks, but in other cases it might be. Some freedoms are a hell of a lot more important than others. I wouldn’t lump my right to own dynamite in there with freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and even ::: bites tongue ::: right to bear arms.

My opinion is that the most beneficial and pragmatic policy would restrict behavior if practical and ban objects if applicable — while at the same time taking into account individual liberties. As always, it’s a balancing act for which I offer no simple solution.

  • JB

Dumbguy said:

But the same thing can certainly be said of any belief or concept to which you’ve been exposed over a lifetime - I was raised Catholic, and even though I’m now a “weak” atheist, my speech is full of religious references, I have religious imagery in my home and I sometimes find myself appealing to a “higher” power. We knock on wood, throw salt over our shoulders, cross our fingers, etc., but would we base our important decisions on supernatural forces? It’s impossible to avoid persuasive images in this world; the fact that we automatically think of certain brands when considering a purchase should not be considered any more of an invasion of our psyche than the other things.

junebeetle said:

and Doug Bowe said:

Obviously advertising, being a business function, is in a different class of “free speech” than political dialogue or popular entertainment. It is regulated to prevent fraudulent claims and unfair business practices, and some product advertising is restricted under separate legislation, as mentioned by Doug.

While these restrictions are a far cry from censorship, both in intent and effect, can you imagine a world where ads are regulated based on their effectiveness at creating the desire in viewers to buy the product?!

“Sure, Nabisco, you can advertise those cookies. But just make sure you don’t make 'em sound too good. And oh yeah — don’t show any attractive images of those things; we don’t wanna make anyone hungry, do we?”

(Kinda sounds like a Vonnegut story line, doesn’t it? ‘Harry Bergeron’ meets Madison Avenue…)

Neither Xeno nor myself said that advertising didn't affect us at all. I myself admitted that advertisements as a child did sway me and I'll admit that even today I am swayed by advertisements. I've seen them on television or in print and thought "Hey, that looks neat I think I'll go give that a try." The point I'm making is no advertisement ever **made** me buy something I didn't want. I love those Budweiser and Jack in the Box commercials but I never use either of their products. Well, except for Tequiza.

Marc

Wouldn’t it be beneficial for the consumer in the long-term if advertising were to disappear? Advertising enforces brand differentiation, which is a method of competition in todays global marketplace. When a company (usually owned by one of the few big multi-nationals) releases a new product, competing firms will often release a homogenous product and brand it (ie Daz, Ariel, whatever). When some new trickery has been thought up to make the unwitting consumer part with his dough, competing firms will offer an alternative (ie note the trend in washing machine tablets) under their existing brand which will have developed brand loyalty mainly through advertising.

As such, if commercial advertising were suddenly banned, would the consumer not be demanding what he actually wanted and not what he is told he wants? And furthermore, would competing firms not have one less method of non-price competition therefore increasing the likelyhood of a reduction in price through price competition? I don’t know these answers as I hate economics almost as much as the conditions it has brought about.

papertiger:

Price is not the only determination in purchasing decisions. Quality, ease-of-use, etc. should also play a role. Let me ask you this: When you are loyal to a brand, why? What is your reason for choosing a brand that you know to be more expensive than othe choices?

Would you feel better or worse off if there were only one kind of, say, mayonnaise to choose from?

-VM

Junebeetle, excellent thread.

Advertising is no problem for me. I tune it out as easily as the gibberish of people standing right next to me who have nothing interesting to say. On the other hand, if something does catch my attention, I will look into it and decide if it has merit.

The interesting thing for me is that I can compare a culture with virtually no advertising to the adverting-soaked culture we live in. I lived the first nine years of my life in the Ukraine, at a time when it was still part of the Soviet Union. No need for advertising - nothing to sell anyway! The store shelves literally sat empty 80% of the time (just my estimate). We had one TV channel (Government issue), no information superhiway back then to link you to other data and people, and of course, no nasty blimps flying around. Now here I sit in SF, CA., and every 8 - 10 minutes there are ads on TV, Radio, Billboards, etc. and it does not bother me one bit. Instead, I appreciate what I get in return - unlimited entertainment and information, sporting events (yes boys and girls, those have sponsors too, more music, more art, more, well, enough on this. IS there more site and sound pollution as a result? Yup, sure is. Is this a big problem? Nope, not for me. Some of the ads are funnier than some of the programming, heh heh. Well, I suppose we could live without it, but why? If we can look at all that educational material in high school and ignore it why can’t we ignore the ads that we find offensive?

There is one more angle - right now, along with the advertising we don’t want, we get an enormous amount of information, either directly from the ads, or in other ways sponsored by ads. If that were to stop, and folks would have to seek all this information out, would it always be available? Would it cost people money to find it? Who would guarantee that we could get all info required, the Government? If so, will we need more taxes? On and on.

I like the ads for some of those over-30K automobiles, they find some of the best scenery for those!

One example of avoiding the unwanted ads: I spend a lot of time in the Lake Tahoe area (CA and NV). I noticed one day on a drive to Carson City, NV that parts of the road (I think it’s Hwy 395 at that point) are absolutely saturated with billboards, advertising mostly breast implants, vision correction, and other items I don’t find interesting. Then we return to Lake Tahoe, and notice that there is not a single billboard along the stretch of road next to the shore of the lake leading back to SLT. Obviously, someone (or some folks) took steps to keep nothing but trees and lake along this road. Citizens must have worked with government to make this happen. It is quite do-able, and done often.

Sili

MGibson wrote:


The point I’m making is no advertisement ever made me buy something I didn’t want.


You’re certainly right about that, but it’s kind of a hollow point. Technically, nothing can make you do anything. I’m not saying advertising somehow negates your free will. Nothing can do that. But it does make repeated associations with images of sex and food and other instinctual urges that illicit chemical reacions in your body in spite of any filtering your intellect may be attempting to do. Repeated associations of a stimulus (behavior, object, product) with a primary reinforcer (sex, food) has been consistently shown to modify behavior. Standard operant conditioning. Skinner boxes don’t only work on rats, and advertising people are well versed in these techniques.

xenophon41 wrote:


It’s impossible to avoid persuasive images in this world.


That may be so, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have the right to resent particular images that I think don’t agree with. It doesn’t mean I can’t wish things were otherwise. Why is it that when anyone points out something that is perhaps less than ideal with our social/economic/political system, you invariably get a rush of “shut up, that’s how things are, it can’t be better, this is the finest society in human history, go somewhere else if you don’t like it you anarchist”? What exactly is the danger in saying, “We can do better. A lot of things we do are great and impressive and inspiring, but a few of these other things kind of suck. Let’s give them some thought”? Maybe there’s a way to have a system of advertising that isn’t so ubiquitous and amoral. I may not be smart enough to think of one, but someone else might be. What’s the harm in addressing it?

Dumbguy said:

Wow! I said all that? I really must improve my self-editing because I thought I merely pointed out the prevalence of persuasive techniques outside of advertising.

Maybe you’re taking my response a little too directly; I was responding to your specific point, but within the context of the O.P., which called for “a ban on all forms of advertising.” Certainly you have the right to resent being bombarded by these images. And certainly you have the right to post your distaste for particular images. Just be aware that others will respond to the ideas, concepts and opinions you post in the spirit of the forum (Great Debates; it’s right on top of the page). Some respondents will be polite, as MGibson and I were, and some may be abusive, but don’t take any challenge to your point of view as a rejection of your right to entertain it.

xenophon41, I may have taken your point too directly, but I think you did mine as well. I was reacting (maybe too dramatically) to a general tenor on this board and elsewhere to respond to any criticism of our culture with, “It’s better than any other system”, which isn’t so much a debate as a expression of unwillingness to debate.

You said that you were responding "within the context of the O.P., which called for “a ban on all forms of advertising.”, but junebeetle had previously stated “The OP was more cultural criticism than serious policy suggestion.” I had also said, “I’m, not suggesting we outlaw advertising, but I took junbeetle’s OP to be more of a wouldn’t it be swell if…” Simplistically characterizing someone’s position as an untenable extreme like ‘should we ban advertising’ strikes me more as tactical debate for its own sake than an exchange of ideas. Although as you pointed out, the board is called Great Debates, not Great Exchanges of Ideas.

Incidentally, I never thought you or MGibson were impolite or abusive. I didn’t mean to imply that, and I hope I wasn’t either.

No hurt feelings here. 'Nuff said!

I figured that junebeetle made the original proposal, which he characterized as “My Naive and Wildly Impractical Solution (NWIS)” in order to prompt this discussion on the relative merits/abuses/evils of advertising, rather than as a serious suggestion. (Sort of like “Take this as a topic: Hemorrhoids. Is it the itch or the swelling? -Talk amongst yourselfs.”)

It’s been a great thread, so far!

The way I think of advertising is “Cool. People are providing me with free services, or reducing the cost of things, in exchange for putting mild annoyances where I can see them, as well as providing me with information that I could use if the opportunity should ever arise that I could afford to buy something.” I do think that the people responsible for certain commercials ought to be shot, however.

I like to think that when people spend their money, they usually put more thought behind it than choosing things by virtue of the vague hints of sex that they might feel due to a television commercial. Even if they don’t, I do, and their actions don’t really affect me.

So we all agree that there might be stupid people somewhere who can be manipulated, but it definitely isn’t any of us.

Right - but why is that a bad thing? ferinstance, I didn’t know that Apple had come up iwth the iMac until I saw the ad and said “Cool!” You’re right - it created demand - but I’m very happy with my iMac, and am glad I saw the ad for it. So, that ad has increased my personal happiness - what’s wrong with that?

By the way, if you did succeed in banning advertising, you realise that one of the first things to go would be the Straight Dope? The Chicago Reader is free because it makes all its money from ads. No ads, no Cecil.

Even the papers you buy would likely go under as well - there’s a reason around 50% of the average paper is ads - that’s where they make the bulk of their money, not in paper sales.

jti said,

That’s one of the things I love about the Internet. You get so many fantastic free services — and the banner ads are relatively easy to ignore (even the flashy animated variety). The only banners that succeed in catching my attention are the ones with smiling beautiful women on them (another good illustration of transfer). At least on the Net you can avoid most of the high powered psychological warfare you see in TV commercials.

If advertising were banned, people would have to start paying for the products and services they normally get for free. Which means the Chicago Reader would either have to start charging, or Cecil would have to find a new job (why do I feel like I’m digging myself into a hole here?). You’d have to pay a monthly fee for television. Radio would be scrambled and you’d have to “subscribe” to your favorite stations. Or maybe recording companies would choose to foot the bill in the hopes of making their artists known.

I think my hypothesized universal price drop would balance out the extra costs of paying for normally free services. If you think about it, we’re all paying for television even if we don’t watch it. When you buy Corn Flakes, a certain percentage of the money goes to the television networks to buy air time for the commercial (maybe that’s why the generic Corn Flakes are so much cheaper!). If advertising were banned, the only people to pay for TV would be the ones who actually watch it.

Dumbguy said,

Yes! In our self-congratulatory arrogance, we tend to forget that human beings are animals too, with many of the same instinctual drives as other animals. We can be trained just like a rat in a Skinner box. Yes, we also have the capabilities of logic and self-discipline, but even the most rational people among us have occasional trouble dealing with the emotional, animalistic side of their personalities. (Anyone who’s been in love knows exactly what I’m talking about!)

You’ve just hit the nail on the head as to why I object so much to the techniques of advertising. I consider myself a rational person, and I am upset when advertising chooses to target the animal part in me rather than the thinking part. An ad showing me a beautiful woman is using my own sex drive to manipulate me into buying a product! Argh!! I begin to feel just a bit too much like a lab rat.

  • JB

JuneBeetle

Impressive list of consequences!

Determining what means to employ, based on what ends you wish to achieve, is almost always complicated, oblique, and speculative. Why not simply do the right thing? That is, why not simply employ an ethical means, assured that whatever ends ensue, they will be right ends, simply because the means were right?

In this case, why not let peaceful honest people advertise if they want to, and punish unethical behavior in advertising, namely coercion and fraud?

Fair enough?