I don’t know, do the mass protests in New York in 2003 and 2004 count?
Hee hee, yeah, then I can spend a couple months trying to scrape by on the $2K I’ll get from my last paycheck plus accrued vacation hours, and no medical insurance, looking for a job that pays even close to what I’m making now so I can still barely afford to live in a city that is one of the two best on the East Coast for seeking out freelance translation jobs, before I run out of food and lose the apartment.
We’re not allowed to discuss our use of the “ignore” feature, but I think we’re allowed to discuss our use of the “roll our eyes and scroll past inane arguments we’ve seen a hundred times” feature. Shodan’s got a sharp mind, but he sure can apply it to some stupid shit sometimes.
On the bright side, he’s become decidedly more respectful toward Democrats, and is no longer chanting, “We’re gonna wi-in! We’re gonna wi-in!” in every thread discussing US politics. I’m sure that has everything to do with his newfound courtesy and nothing to do with the fact that Bush’s ass is toast in November.
After trudging through this thread, I am very disappointed by the shortsighted views. People get so hung up on the apparent morality of a situation, they fail to realize any perspective whatsoever. To answer MsRobyn directly, they are heroic for dying in ANY war, because I didn’t have to. They joined up, went through the training, put up with Army life, and shipped off to war. And guess what? If the war is just, unjust, or just for the fun of a few politicians in power, if that person wasn’t there, along with all of the other volunteers, I would have to be there. These people didn’t just kill to save their lives, or that of their buddies’. They also killed so I (or you) wouldn’t have to. And so any other male of the ages 18 to (don’t remember the upper end range) wouldn’t have to. Each and every soldier out there that you don’t know a damn thing about deserves your support, if for no other reason, as a thank you for taking my (or your) potential place.
Also, to Olentzero, the cry of “support the troops” has very little to do with “make them as safe and as comfortable as possible so the world is a happier place.” “Support the troops” means, pretty much, “support the troops no matter how fucked up our government is because if you don’t more of our people will wind up with physical or mental problems as a result.” It’s a cry inspired by the quagmire that was Vietnam, where you had thousands of men in a war they didn’t believe in, and didn’t want to participate in. It was people like you, who seem to think that “supporting soldiers = supporting the war”, caused the 60’s and 70’s to be such a terrible time for the draftees and service volunteers. The troops got fucked by the government with lack of supplies and funding, then fucked by the general public who called them “baby killer” when they finally stopped doing the killing they didn’t want to do in the first place.
Do I agree with the war? No. I think it sucks that we’re there, and there for the wrong reasons. I’m neither liberal, nor conservative. I believe in perspective and reality and choose my stance on issues individually. I cried during every episode of Band of Brothers because each one forced me to ask myself the question “Could I have done what they did?” and I didn’t have an honest answer.
And one more thing as my post gets too long. I think that ** A Monkey With a Gun** has a great question. Should those that earned the medal of honor in WWI (or WWII for that matter) not have been honored the way they were. Take Audie Murphy . He won the medal because he single handedly killed or wounded over 50 Germans. Read the account in the link I posted and tell me he wasn’t brave. Also tell me that if you substituted “German” for “Iraqi” with the same exact circumstances (except, of course that WWII was for different reason than Iraq Round II) the person in question would be any less heroic because, in the end, the bottom line is that he left a bunch of families without fathers/husbands.
The men in Iraq are keeping themselves, their buddies, their fellow platoons, and by extension you and me alive, and their doing it whether the war is just, or not. If that’s not heroic and brave, then what in the hell is?
Are you really that stupid, or are you dodging the question on purpose?
All right, I’ll break the logic behind the question down for you. You say that citations for bravery should not be issued for action in which someone was killed, no matter when or where. Following the same morals, past citations for bravery should not have been issued for actions in which someone was killed, no matter when or where. Therefore, Sergeant York should not have been awarded the CMH because he killed Germans in the actions honored by the Medal of Honor. Due to the fact that Sergeant York should not have been awarded the medal in the first place, do you believe that the undeserved honor bestowed upon him should be rescinded?
But you know what? I don’t care, anymore. You acted like an asshole in Mr. Moto’s threads, have changed your stated reason at least once after I asked you what you were mad about (was it the thread, or the medals themselves? Make up your damn mind), and getting you to answer simple questions is like pulling teeth. The answers you do provide show that you are beyond hope. You claim that you would say the same thing to a newspaper as you did to Mr. Moto. Do you realize what you would be chastizing the newspaper about? You would be asking them to not cover these awards because the unbiased reports on the actions of the military “glorify” the war. I.e: to censor themselves for a political agenda.
Then I misunderstood her post, and I apologize. Reading it from that perspective, I see what she’s saying. I thought I was keeping my post evenhanded enough to include veterans and non veterans, but in her case, I obviously didn’t.
I am genuinely sorry.
Now I have to disagree. Just because MsRobyn is a vetern and she is married to one does not mean she speaks *ex cathedra * on these subjects. She could just as easily be wrong on this sort of topic as anybody else.
Would you be willing to admit the possibility of her being wrong if she had spoken in favor of the war, Zebra?
Monkey with a Gun, no I don’t think any of the medals should be rescinded. If individual soldiers refused the citations on grounds similar to what I’ve argued, more power to them. If they want to accept the citations, that’s their choice. But what good would rescinding them all do? What injustices would that fix? It’s not the medals themselves that bother me, it’s the meaning the government and the military attaches to them (ie, bravery = killing enemy soldiers) and the idea that the actions for which those citations were awarded should be hailed as heroism.
I mean, if you want to draw the conclusion that disagreement with the reasons for most citations = demand for rescinding all citations, there’s little I can do to prevent you except say that you have no grounds for doing so based on what I’ve said.
Nope. I meant meaningful, not standing around in a crowd.
Yes. That would show real commitment. Posting on the net means nothing. Put your money were your mouth is. If you hate the government and what its doing don’t be a hypocrite, quit your job.
If you are going to respond to my posts, be kind enough not to misquote me.
Spavined Gelding, in his singularly silly response, mistyped the list.
Here is what he said I posted:
Here is the list in its entirety:
[quote=Shodan]
On the SDMB, it is pretty nearly unanimously liberal. As in -[ul]
[li]You believe in God? You’re an idiot.[/li][li]You voted for Bush? You’re a moron.[/li][li]You want to call it civil union instead of marriage? You’re a bigot.[/li][li]You support the troops? You’re a sick ghoul. [/ul][/li][/quote]
If you want examples -[ul][li]For examples of the first, see any thread on religion from rjung.[/li][li]For examples of the second, see any thread in GD.[/li][li]For an example of the third, see Guinastasia’s most recent Pitting of SHAKES. [/li][li]For the last, it is the subject of the OP.[/ul][/li]
Regards,
Shodan
I’m sorry, but I disagree with this. The mass demonstrations from both 2003 and 2004 produced more awareness and discussion and debate than you are crediting them with (despite GW’s comparing the attendees to a “focus group”), and were attended by several hundred thousand people in spots all over the world. I’d hardly call them meaningless.
That said, I would like to thank The_Llama for posting what I’d been trying to find a way to express all afternoon.
[ul][li]For examples of the first, see any thread on religion from rjung.[/li][li]For examples of the second, see any thread in GD.[/li][li]For an example of the third, see Guinastasia’s most recent Pitting of SHAKES. [/li][li]For the last, it is the subject of the OP.[/ul][/li]
You missed one
[ul][li]If you’re an idiot who believes in God, a moron who voted for Bush, etc., etc., you’re a martyr for your cause. For examples, check out any second post by Shodan, Libertarian, Starving Artist, or milroyj[/li][/ul]
I wasn’t speaking ex cathedra, since I have no moral authority to speak for anyone but myself.
That said, yes, I am a veteran. I wore the Navy’s uniform for two years. My husband wears the Air Force’s uniform. When he deploys, as he has twice now, I am all too aware of the possibilities. All of them. So what I said wasn’t some half-assed thing; it’s something I have to think about. I don’t have the luxury of thinking about it in terms of “what if”.
My apologies, I c&p’d from the quote on page two to be kind to the hamsters.
As for your examples, I don’t think they demonstrate any degree of monolithic agreement with your summaries – except maybe “if you voted for Bush, you’re an idiot,” I might nitpick and say that there may be grudging admission that someone who merely voted for Bush in the last election might not be an idiot, if they just did it out of partisan habit. There does seem to be a consensus about the intelligence of people who plan to vote that way again, though, and no doubt it seems terribly slanted to someone in the U.S. where opinion is divided nearly equally.
Belief in god? My impression is still that most Dopers have a religious faith of some flavour – the contempt seems to be reserved for ignorant zealots. You can see just how popular a “Religious people are stoopid” attitude is in this thread. Yeah, it’s a gay marriage thread. As I’ve said, I think people who would withhold full marriage rights from gays are bigots. I’m sure many of them are otherwise lovely people. Yes, I’m in lockstep with the herd on this one, just like I’ve been indoctrinated into declaring that the Earth is an oblate spheroid.
And for the last… the subject of the OP… how many people made even qualified agreement with that sentiment again?
I have no problem with Mr Moto posting his threads. But I do think his motives are suspect. He’s doing it to glorify this illegal, God forsaken war. In which he believes in deeply. He doesn’t care about the men who did the acts, just the acts themselves.
My guess is the men who won the awards would tell him not to do it.
Mr Moto…you looking for four more years so you can have another illegal war to glorify?
