Hi-fi Loudspeaker Cable

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Let me first agree that most of this is utter BS. (The cables I mean, not the discussion.)

There are occasions when the direction of the cable might be of interrest, and that is if it is a shielded cable. In that case you want the shield connected to the gound only in one of the components, in order to avoid ground loops.

I’m pretty sure that it wouldn’t make any mesaurable difference in a normal speaker cable setup, but one could just about imagine situations when it might make a slight but measurable difference.

(For example, I assume that the shield is connected to the ‘signal ground’ only in one end of the cable, and that when this is connected to the stereo it is a ‘true ground’, whereas when connected to the speaker it is floating to some extent. This might indeed make the signal slightly more susceptible to noise pick-up.)

NB, I’m by no means an audiophile, and I’m pretty sure that any effects would be well below audible. however, I’m also an engineer, who has been fighting ground-loops in a lab environment, and there these things are important.

[Crafter_Man]

*Originally posted by askol *
**A guitar cable may be directional, so that the outer-most conductor (the one that, I assume, picks up radio interference) is only grounded at one end. **

It depends.

In the very common “unbalanced” setup (such as regular 'ol coax cable), both the outer and inner conductors are actively “carrying” the signal. Therefore, the outer conductor/shield must be connected at both ends. The only time you can get away with tying the shield to ground at one end only is when it’s a balanced setup, i.e. when you have two or more conductors (often twisted) surrounded by a shield.

[Crafter_Man]

*Originally posted by Q.E.D. *
**Yep, you’re right. Shielded speaker cable is ridiculous. Even for very long runs, it buys you almost nothing, since any induced signals are well below the power level of even low-volume speaker signal levels (and indeed, below the minimum driving levels for most speakers). I’ve heard hum in speakers, of course, but it’s never come from the speaker wires; it’s always been from the amplifier, either from a bad power supply or hum induced in line-level input cables. **

Agree. Not only is the signal of relatively high amplitude, but it’s low impedance and on the output stage of an amplifier…

[The_Raven_1]

Howyadoin,

There is a reason for having specific ends for guitar cables, concerning at which end the shield is connected and at which it is “floating”. It has to do with ground hum elimination while still shielding the cable from RF interference. If memory serves, the end at which the shield is connected goes to the amplifier input, while the open side goes to the guitar.

As for directionality of electron flow in an AC circuit requiring specific molecular arrangement… ya, riiight…

-Rav

[Q.E.D]

*Originally posted by The_Raven *
**Howyadoin,

There is a reason for having specific ends for guitar cables, concerning at which end the shield is connected and at which it is “floating”. It has to do with ground hum elimination while still shielding the cable from RF interference. If memory serves, the end at which the shield is connected goes to the amplifier input, while the open side goes to the guitar.

As for directionality of electron flow in an AC circuit requiring specific molecular arrangement… ya, riiight…

-Rav **

Uh, no. In a typical guitar cable the shield is also the second conductor, and is therefore connected to shell at both ends, while the center conductor is connected to tip at both ends. If either end has one of these unconnected, there is an open circuit and no signal transfer.

[Crafter_Man]

*Originally posted by Q.E.D. *
**Uh, no. In a typical guitar cable the shield is also the second conductor, and is therefore connected to shell at both ends, while the center conductor is connected to tip at both ends. If either end has one of these unconnected, there is an open circuit and no signal transfer. **

Yep.

Of course, I guess it is possible for everything to work without the outer conductor connected if all systems share the same ground via the ground conductor in the AC power cord or whatever. Perhaps this is what he’s getting at.

In fact, if everything shares a common ground, then it’s possible for everything to work without even the presence of an outer conductor. But this arrangement would (obviously) cause noise problems in most arrangements…

[something_clever]

*Originally posted by Crafter_Man *
**Heck, I don’t even think you need to use shielded cable, unless it’s an abnormally long run. **

you know, i just noticed what i typed… i didnt mean speaker cable, what i was thinking of when i typed ‘speaker cable’ were the RCA lines, or whatever you want to call the cables between the preamp outputs on the HU in a car, and the inputs on the amplifier.

[capnfutile]

I used to work in a guitar shop, and one day three of us decided to blind test a Monster Cable patch cord and a standard midrange patch cord. Over half an hour of tests we determined that the Monster Cable was slightly, but clearly, louder. Sounded about the same, though. Nothing a volume control wouldn’t take care of. Your amp does go to 11, doesn’t it?

“Directional electron flow?” I detect smoke being blown up plumbing. Some of the stuff audiophiles believe in is laughable. Beam scatter, demagnetizing CDs, yadda yadda.

capn

[Mort_Furd]

*Originally posted by capnfutile *
]I used to work in a guitar shop, and one day three of us decided to blind test a Monster Cable patch cord and a standard midrange patch cord. Over half an hour of tests we determined that the Monster Cable was slightly, but clearly, louder. Sounded about the same, though. Nothing a volume control wouldn’t take care of. Your amp does go to 11, doesn’t it?

And just how did you determine this? With your ears? If so, then you have a purely subjective impression. If it took a half an hour to determine that there was a difference, then you most likely didn’t really hear one at all.

All you need for speaker cable is wire that is large enough to carry the current, and good solid connectors and connections at each end. Good connectors will cost a couple of bucks more, but that’s all.

Corrosion in the cable can make a difference (scratchy sounds from changing wire resistance as the wire flexes,) so a sealed cable might do you some good - especially if you encounter a lot of dampness (outdoor concerts and such.) In your average home, it won’t really matter.

The same goes for patch cables. Good, solid connections and connectors will do you the most good. The real important thing when interconnecting pieces of equipment is a good impedance match between the two devices, and the cable can’t influence that.

Bob Pease (an engineer from National Semiconductor and columnist for “Electronic Design”) once offered to do a double blind test with a bunch of “Golden Ears” guys from different audiophile magazines. They all wormed out of it, leaving the impression that they knew they couldn’t tell the difference between insanely expensive cable and stuff that ordinary mortals use.

[Crafter_Man]

*Originally posted by capnfutile *
three of us decided to blind test a Monster Cable patch cord and a standard midrange patch cord. Over half an hour of tests we determined that the Monster Cable was slightly, but clearly, louder. Sounded about the same, though.

Was it a double-blind test? If not, your results (whether you know it or not) are very likely biased.

[Boo_Boo_Foo]

I tell ya what I’m really interested in though…

It’s the OP’s reference to the audiophile “friend” who bought a tube-amp to do away with the nasty cold solid state amp sound artefacts.

Now, here’s the thing… those of us out there who are guitarists know what a valve amp means… when you overdrive their optimal input amplitude, you get lovely warm harmonic valve distortion. Some guitar amps are pure Class A amps, that is, the power amp circuitry amplifies BOTH the negative and postive phases of a waveform, and some amps have dual rectifiers etc. Some amps, like Marshalls have a pre amp stage with valve, which ALSO can be overdriven, and then the power amp stage amplifies THAT signal. Whatever, it makes not much difference to this discussion. What counts is that solid state, when it distorts, is instant, and it sounds nasty.

But valve distortion is very, VERY different to solid state distortion. It’s actually quite musical in most cases because it generally manifests itself as a 2nd or 3rd or 4th harmonic as a means of dissipating the overdriven input amplitude.

As a guitar player, this is a fantastic thing. It creates that wonderful famous tone which became so well known to us in the late 60’s. Indeed, for those of you are real guitar whores, you’ll be real interested to know that amongst various amps, I own a '67 and '71 VOX AC30, and a genuine '65 Fender Twin (the real deal blackface issue). And driven hard, these amps produce the most famous guitar tones ever recorded.

My point here is this… a valve power amp in a hi-fi setting is also physically prone to the same sort of harmonic, musically acceptable distortion. Driven hard, valve power amps get real “warm” - which is a fancy way of saying that they’re actually being somewhat overdriven and they’re coping by introducing musically acceptable harmonics. It’s part of the reason why true audiophile who power their speakers with valve amps rave about the “warmth” in their sound which you can’t get any other way.

The ultimate irony for me is that the audiophile mentioned in the OP, I’ll bet, isn’t aware of this. He’s actually listening to a musically acceptable form of harmonic distortion when he drives his system hard.

[Mort_Furd]

You tell 'em, Boo Boo Foo.

Cotton pickin’ “Golden Ears” audiophiles who wouldn’t know distortion if it bit 'em in the … grumble grumble.

[Cheesesteak]

I just want to make sure I understand. The guitar player who introduces harmonic distortion and claims it sounds better is smart. The audiophile who introduces harmonic distortion and claims it sounds better is dumb.

Got it.

[Q.E.D]

*Originally posted by Cheesesteak *
**I just want to make sure I understand. The guitar player who introduces harmonic distortion and claims it sounds better is smart. The audiophile who introduces harmonic distortion and claims it sounds better is dumb.

Got it. **

Well, yes, because by definition, an audiophile is someone who strives to get the truest possible reproduction of the original performance out of his stereo system. Introducing distortion into the mix is the antithesis of that aim.

[Cheesesteak]

Well, I guess the audiophiles I knew weren’t “true audiophiles” since their aim was to have the best sounding system possible. My mistake.

[R.P.McMurphy]

*Originally posted by bbart4 *
**I used to be an audiophile too until I wised up. There’s just too much BS in the high-end audio world.

Honestly, if you spend $300 on speaker cables, they have to sound good just to justify the money you spend.

Wonder if anybody knows if there are some double-blind tests conducted on expensive v. cheap cables. For sure, high-end audiophile mags would have done them, wouldn’t they ? **

I read an article once somewhere in an audiophile magazine about how impossible it is to do a scientifically valid A/B test on speaker cables. Therefore, since it can’t be proved or disproved, the rip-off continues. Since the whole thing is BS I’m not going to sweat the fact that I can’t source or substantiant the material.

I have a friend who does remixes for a MAJOR recording company. He works all day with the state of the art equipment in order to get the final product to sound “just right”. His home system costs about $1,000 and he says that’s perfectly adaquate.

Ask yourself, “Are you listening to the music or the equipment?”

Hint: If you are listening to the equipment you are probably an insufferable bore.

[bb2000]

I google’d a bit and came up with

ABX Test Results: Interconnects and Wires

It doesn’t appear to use a massive base for the research but the article was referenced from Audio Myths which has a lot of links to different articles.

Hope it helps.

[The_Raven_1]

*Originally posted by Q.E.D. *
**Uh, no. In a typical guitar cable the shield is also the second conductor, and is therefore connected to shell at both ends, while the center conductor is connected to tip at both ends. If either end has one of these unconnected, there is an open circuit and no signal transfer. **

Ah, you are correct… This shield lifting, or “telescoping” applies to TRS (Tip/Ring/Shield) cables. The idea is to have the shield connected to wherever the ground is connected, usually an amp or mixer. Therefore, there is a “right” and “wrong” end to the cable in relation to noise rejection.

-Rav

[Q.E.D]

*Originally posted by The_Raven *
**Ah, you are correct… This shield lifting, or “telescoping” applies to TRS (Tip/Ring/Shield) cables. The idea is to have the shield connected to wherever the ground is connected, usually an amp or mixer. Therefore, there is a “right” and “wrong” end to the cable in relation to noise rejection.

-Rav **

Right. That type of cable is referred to as “balanced”. The actual signal is passed through the tip-ring pair, while the shield, being used only for EMI suppression need only be attached to shell and grounded at one end (usually the amp end, since it will have the ground, in most cases).

[Mort_Furd]

*Originally posted by Cheesesteak *
**I just want to make sure I understand. The guitar player who introduces harmonic distortion and claims it sounds better is smart. The audiophile who introduces harmonic distortion and claims it sounds better is dumb.

Got it. **

Right. The guitar player is CREATING a sound, and the distortion plays a role in that.

The audiophile is (supposedly) trying to get the best possible recreation of the sounds the musician created. If he adds distortion, then he is not getting the original sound.

HiFi is short for “High Fidelity,” you know.