Hinduism - calling all Hindus, ex-Hindus, and those merely interested

Great Debates
21

Traditionally, the general rule is that one cannot convert to Hinduism. Being a Hindu is not a matter of conscience or faith. It is a matter of birth. Reflect on what I have said before – there is no dogma, no required faith, no moral or spiritual or ethical demand of a Hindu. One is a Hindu merely because one is part of a Hindu family.

Note what I said before – those claiming to be “converts” to Hinduism are viewed with suspicion or amusement.

Hinduism demands nothing of a Hindu. Nothing.

No. As I said before, to a Hindu, all religious practice is of equal value. Most Hindus will happily participate in the religious rites of other religions – including the holy communion of Catholics, unless someone specifically tells them not to – both as a matter of spirituality and politeness and they would view others’ participation in their rites the same way. You’re in X’s temple; it’s only polite that you do what everyone else is doing.

You ask your family who your priest is. Hindus and Hinduism is centered on family. In Indian culture, family is not mom, dad, and 2.5 children. Traditionally, sons (especially eldest sons) are not ever supposed to live apart from their parents, while they are alive. The head of the household is the eldest person living under your roof. That is the person who is looked to for “family” decisions. On a broader basis, your family is all your living blood relatives. They might also be consulted.

People find gurus in all kinds of ways. I suppose if you are looking for spiritual guidance, you might start with an older relative or other respected person in your circle. You might be introduced to the teachings of a specific guru through a relative or a friend, or merely by coming across one by chance, or reading about one or seeing one on television.

They won’t be. Remeber, in Hinduism, a temple is merely a site for religious rites to be performed. It is not the center of social or religious activity – you look to your family for such things.

And, once again, Hindus rarely “go to” a temple in the same way that Christians or Jews do. In America, Hindus do tend to be more regular because there are so many fewer temples around – it’s a bit of a hike to get to one, so you’ll seek one out that’s convenient. Really, though, most American Hindus choose temples because your friends go there.

To a large extent, the major religious Hindu festivals are more important as social occasions than as religious ones – yes, you participate in the religious rite, but you really go there to wear new clothes, eat good food, hang out with your friends, play cards, gossip, show off your children’s talents (music, drama, dance, …), etc.

And these things are centered on temples in the United States, because there are so few Indians here. But in India, while people might visit a temple on these days, the real action for major religious events takes place in the home and in the neighborhood. The huge pandals for Durga Puja and Kali Puja, for example, are set up at major intersections in every neighborhood, not necessarily in temples.

In India, your family is there to help you get access to whatever services you need.

Remember, in Hinduism a priest is functional. You only need one if you need a particular rite conducted. If you want something done right away, you can stop in at any old temple and ask to look at the schedule of fees for particular rites. If it’s for an important occasion (and all important occasions are family occasions), you’ll consult your family regarding which priest to call in.

Most people do not learn Sanskrit, which is the language that Hindu rites are conducted in. The language and words of the rites are functional, not instructional. They are meant to move the gods to certain actions, so it is not necessary for most people to learn the language.

If you are wondering about the meaning of a specific rite being conducted in your presence, the priest might be happy to translate it for you as he goes if you ask.

For those who are interested in serious religious study, it is possible to take lessons in Sanskrit.

For Indians living in America, parents are much more interested in their children learning their own ethnic language. My parents, for example, made sure that I could understand and speak Bengali. Around here, I know that there are people who will teach Bengali to the children of immigrants.

22

I forgot to respond to this question:

You’re probably thinking of the scriptural reading-plus-lesson type “service” and this is something that (1) is not part of the normal duty of a temple priest or family priest (2) is not something that most Hindus feel obligated to participate in. If a person decides he or she likes a particular guru (spiritual teacher), then he might arrange to go to a place where that guru is known to be giving lessons. Or, if he is a rich enough person (or the guru is a “small” enough guru), he might invite the guru to his own house to give instruction to him and friends and family – whoever wants to come along. In the United States, gurus – both big-time and small-time – go on lecture-circuit-type tours – often staying in the homes of people who want them to hold forth for them and their friends.

If you’re asking about the length and style of religious rites. Well, they can be as long as you want them to be (provided you bring the cash to pay). The more you want to get the gods’ attention, the longer and more involved the rite is. If they are particularly long or complicated rites, you might have to book a priest or temple space in advance (having consulted your astrologer for “auspicious dates,” of course). You will probably also be asked to bring or pay for certain supplies that are needed for the rites. Certainly you will want to bring something to sacrifice – again, depending on the complexity – usually flowers or fruit. Usually, the approach to the temple is filled with vendors of all the types of things you’ll need. (Including shoe storage services – you can’t wear shoes in a temple, and theft is common, so it’s common to pay someone to look after your shoes.)

23

I’m not Hindu, but spent some time in India and had some lengthy conversations about personal topics with Indian grad students and others. I have some comments/questions for folks in this thread, who I assume grew up here even if they weren’t born here, because I’m interested in any differences in perspective.

  1. On a light note, I’ve been told that if a girl wants to ward off unwanted affections, she can burst a fella’s bubble by giving him a rakhi at Raksha Bandhan - the subtext being, that she thinks of him as a brother, not a suitor. I assume there’s no need to be quite so subtle here in the US? :wink:

  2. W/r/t visiting temples, I did have the privilege of visiting one particular temple in northern India twice, the first time with some fellow Hindu travelers. My companions told me that in some parts of India, I would not have been allowed to even set foot inside, but that since I was with them and behaving respectfully they didn’t think anyone would object (and no one did).

The second time I was invited as an honored guest of a local man who was a major patron of the temple. (Interesting fellow - he was very devout, yet at the same time he was effectively the local “don.”) This time there was puja, and I was encouraged to sit with the priests next to the shrine for aarti afterwards. This was in stark contrast to just about everyone else present who had to stay back behind a barrier, and indeed it seemed that some resented the fact I was given this honor. (For my part, I was worried sick I would goof up and offend someone by mistake. Anne Neville - in this case, puja and aarti lasted about an hour all told.)

Would you say that temples in the U.S. have a more relaxed attitude toward visits by non-Hindus? Or might the attitude I encountered be related more to the fact that I was well out into the countryside and pretty far off the usual path of Western visitors?

  1. I also happened to be in the same temple town at Christmas. Those who knew me, and knew that I was far away from family, were very kind about helping me celebrate anyway, with small gifts and wishes for a Happy Christmas. To my surprise there was a tiny church where I attended midnight Mass, and I was warmly received there as well. The grad student with me asked if he could attend the service, since he had never been to one before, and I told him I didn’t think it would be any problem. (And it wasn’t, really, except that he was disappointed to find the celebrants spoke Hindi “South Indian style,” and he was from Orissa, so he found it nearly as impossible to follow the details of the service as I did.) Our driver clearly did not approve of this, though, however academic an exercise it was meant to be.

Do you find that the Hindu perspective that “all religion is the same” is true for some only in theory? Is there any difference between family/friends here and those back in India?

  1. Re meat-eating: I noticed while in northern India that lots of folks I met (all Brahmin and Kshatriya, as far as I knew) were not strict vegetarians. Sometimes they would opt for veg only though, if we were eating at a place where beef was on the menu (for Muslims), since they said they couldn’t be certain that bits of beef, beef juices, etc. hadn’t gotten mixed up in the prep of their food by mistake.

Interestingly, I was told by a couple of Indian Muslims that they would frequently eat veg-only while traveling abroad, since they couldn’t be certain the meat they were eating was halal.

I noticed also that some North Indians also refused to eat pork. I assume this just a cultural carry-over from Mughal days, is that correct?

24

It’s not a class thing – it’s largely regional. If you’re from Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Rajasthan, or Gujarat, you’re probably vegetarian. If you’re from anywhere else, you’re probably a meat-eater. I’d say that a very large percentage of Hindus are not vegetarian. I don’t have any basis for statistics, but my WAG is that its more than 50 percent.

25

It’s Gandhi.

Speaking purely personally, I see Gandhi as a brilliant political leader, but as a rather confused and stubborn philosopher.

Personality cults or “specialty offshoots” like the Ramkrishna Missions are often engaged in helping the poor. Remember, there is no dogma and very few people read the scriptures (except for, maybe, the Bhagavad Gita, whose message is, essentially, “do your job”), so whatever “good causes” that people engage in they do of their own volition rather than with the idea that their religion demands it.

26

It’s actually not very subtle; it’s pretty explicit. Indeed, I know Indian girls who actually refer to their rakhi-brothers as “brothers.” “This is my brother” – when there’s no actual blood relationship.

There are some hardcore types who are concerned about spiritual purity. Anyone who’s mlechha – and that includes untouchables and foreigners – would defile the temple with their presence. Most Hindus in America don’t go along with such restrictions.

Isn’t there some cliche about criminals being the most religious people? Yeah, a benefactor of a temple gets special privileges.

I’d say yes.

Possibly.

Yes. Note the occasional sectarian violence.

The differences seem to be based more on socio-economic status. The poor are more affected by religious discrimination.

Purity is an important concept in Hinduism. You can’t make a dish contaminated by the presence of beef clean just by removing the chunks of beef.

I don’t think it has anything to do with “Mughal days.” Beef and pork are just not part of the cultural diet historically. While pigs are not given any particular status in Hinduism (either revered or reviled), a lot of Hindus don’t eat pork just because it isn’t done. This was also the case at one time for chicken. There are still some Hindus who don’t eat chicken for cultural-historical reasons. In many cases, in India, “meat” means “goat’s meat” only. the most traditional Hindus would eat only goats.

27

But by no means all. NONE of the children growing up in my community could read or write Hindi and very few can speak it. I was always grateful my parents made sure I knew how to speak it, and I learned to read and write when I was in my teens.

Thanks for your questions!

  1. Yes. As a matter of fact, a long time ago I did just this, when a guy was coming on much too strongly to me. I simply kissed him on the cheek and offered him a rakhi. It doesn’t always work, obviously, but it works with a man who does respect you - it shows him the boundaries you wish to set.
  2. I’ve never seen an issue in my temple. Again, be aware my mom always searched out very liberal temples!
  3. Very much. I think my mom would have a heart attack, as many of my family would, if I married a Muslim and converted. She’d rather see me Christian. We have a faint sense of suspicion toward the Muslim religion, chiefly because it really is very different than our own.
  4. When you are veggie for religious reasons rather than dietary or other, you really need to be even more careful. If you are being veggie because of the health factor, a little beef fat is not going to kill you outright! However if it’s because of your religion, you’ve committed the equivalant of a sin and have to purify. My cousins pretended to be disgusted that I ate beef, even though I didn’t eat in front of them. They were joking, but you could sense an undercurrent of reality.
    So when you go to Afghani stores in the States, you’ll often see HALAAL meat written on the storefront.
    4a. I have no idea why people don’t eat pork. It’s not written anywhere or at least I’ve never heard of it!

As for meat-eating in general, it depends. As acsenray says, it depends on what kind of meat you speak of. Most Indians fresh from India won’t eat beef, and my aunt has been in this country for over 20 years and she still won’t eat beef. But chicken is OK. And if you live in a coastal town like Bombay, fish is OK. We live as far inland as you can get so no fish was eaten in my family.

Anne Nevill, she started out with the Ramayan, which I did read and found rather boring and trite, sans the story of Sita. Then we watched the Mahabharat, which she recommended to read also. The version she gave me was rather dry but I do love it so I read it anyway. Those two were fine but…

then she started on the writings of some saints whom she thought were wonderful. Satya Sai Baba, who I don’t and didn’t believe was a holy man, and some others.

28

I do. I don’t have any blood brothers, and always wanted one.

29

Thanks for the replies so far, you’ve been very informative. A couple more that come to mind:

  • Why the red flags at the temples? Is there any particular significance related to the color?

  • This may be more of a cultural question than a religious one, but let me try…

Suicide is such a serious sin in the Christian view that it is rarely discussed in this country, and when it does happen, people tend to hush it up. So it may be a warped perception on my part, but it seems to me that suicide among young folks in India, usually in college, is seen as tragic but not “sinful,” per se.

The reasons often given for suicide are somewhat baffling to me as well - for girls, it’s commonly the end result of harrassment (eve-teasing), while for the boys it’s failure to pass a certain exam. In this country, they might be causes for depression and anxiety, but the reaction in India appears extreme. This seems especially puzzling to me when the boy in question turns out to be an only son or only child. Most young people I’ve talked to have made it abundantly clear how seriously they view their obligation to look after their parents in their old age. However, when I’ve asked Indian grad students, the response I get is sort of a shrug; they don’t view it as being all that unusual, or stigma-inducing, even if worthy of pity for the parents.

So, is there no religious injunction against suicide under such circumstances? Or was I not getting the whole picture (which is entirely possible)?

30

You’ll be surprised to hear I have thought the same things about suicide, blue sky dreamer. Suicide in Hindi is “atma-hatya”, which means soul-killing. Meaning you don’t go to moksha, which is the ultimate release and the Eternal Oneness with the Supreme Being. Pretty damn bad you say, and I agree. But the actual reaction to suicide is a bit different.

For one thing, no one talks about mental illness in the Hindu world. It’s a very taboo subject. I grew up rather looking down on people who claimed to be mentally ill; it’s only been in recent years I have vastly changed my mindset on the situation. So no one talks about the causes that lead to suicide. If someone does commit suicide, it’s blamed on a third party - the schoolwork, the drugs, the alcohol, bad friends. And it’s never talked about much.

It’s very strange and a big mystery to me as well.

As for the red flags - I’m not sure what you’re referring to, but red is a very important color in our culture. We wear red for our weddings, and red in our hair when we get married, and red for the temples, and red for the paints that we use on the gods’ statues. Red is the color of celebration, and a sign of our love for the gods and each other. On the wedding day, red is the color of lust and sensuality.

31

So, are you saying that the vast majority of Indians who come to the US to study, happen to come from regions that are primarily vegeterian?

Why is that?

I thought the class/caste explanation worked out a bit better. Brahmins, I assume, have more education and more money, making them more likely to qualify and afford to come to the US to study. Also, I assume, Brahmins are more likely to be vegetarian, since they are the “priest caste”.

Anyway, maybe I’m wrong, but I’d like to know why there is a regional bias in the origin of Indians who come to the US to study.

32

I don’t have hard numbers, but it is my impression that there is a overrepresentation of Brahmins among Indian-Americans. But I don’t think it amounts to a majority.

No. Vegetarianism is based on ethnicity and region, not religious status or caste. Bengali Brahmins are omnivorous and Gujaratis of all castes are vegetarian.

I think you’re experiencing a skewed sample. The majority of Indian-Americans I know are non-vegetarian.

33

I don’t know why, but the majority I know start out as veggies or at least non-red-meat eaters and soon after start eating meat. As for regional bias, this I don’t know as well. It seems everywhere I go I see people from Tamil Nadu, and places southwards. I hunger to find more punjabis locally and I find it very difficult to do so. Why do Punjabis not come? Maybe they are happier. Maybe they are less educated and don’t know. Maybe they don’t see it as an opportunity. Maybe the southerners are more educated and know about the world. I honestly have no idea.

34

I never noticed. The colour saffron, which is the orange-ish color on the Indian flag, is associated with the Hindu religion. Could that be the color you’re seeing?

“Sin” doesn’t have the same meaning in Hinduism that it does in Christianity. People do speak of sins, but sins are not as a class separate from any other bad act. All bad acts have the potential for thwarting your progress in future lives towards release from the cycle of birth and death.

Isn’t this kind of suicide also common in Japan? Certain social and family pressures are put on young people to conform and to succeed. They are unable to handle such pressures. The specifics might be different, but it seems to me that it’s not all that different from youth suicide in other countries.

I don’t think that the cultural phenomenon of youth suicide is really related to religion or religious beliefs at all. These youths are put in impossible positions and are desperate and probably experience the same emotions that any youth committing suicide feels in any part of the world. It’s probably just that the social pressures pushing them to that point are different. But I’m no expert on suicide.

Religious injunction against suicide? There is no equivalent of the Ten Commandments in Hinduism, so no one gives you a continuously reinforced definitive list of the worst things you can do as a part of your upbringing – (1) Don’t kill someone else, (2) Don’t kill yourself, etc.

In any case, is religion what is uppermost in the mind of someone who’s so unhappy that they are contemplating suicide? It seems to me that suicides of this kind are more of a social phenomenon than a religious one.

35

Hey, Anaamika! Over here! (raises hand)

36

I’m in engineering (maybe that’s where the skew is coming from)
Between grad school, conferences, and work, I think I have met over 100 Indians well enough to know their vegetarian/meat eating status. Out of those, I would say 90-95% were vegetarians. The sample size is a bit too large for it to be a random effect.

Maybe vegetarians are more likely to become engineers :slight_smile:

37

:jumps for joy: Hi, brother! You are a guy, aren’t you? I am really surprised - last time I started a thread like this, not only did I find no one but someone told me I’d probably never find another person who termed themselves atheist Hindu. :dubious: Um, I know two things: it’s unusual but not that unique, and neither am I - I’m sure if I’ve thought of it many other people have.

So - nice to meet one finally!

38

That’s an odd result, but I doubt that there’s a correlation between engineering and vegetarianism. After all, the most important engineering school in India is IIT-Kanpur, and I don’t think that the student body there skews towards vegetarianism.

However, in the last few years, Bangalore and Hyderabad have become centers for high tech/computer stuff. Those two cities are in vegetarian regions. Maybe you’re meeting a lot of South Indian computer geeks?

39

To be honest, we’re probably not “atheist Hindus” in quite the same way, but that’s probably par for the course as well.

40

Well, that’s Hinduism for ya!