Hinduism - calling all Hindus, ex-Hindus, and those merely interested

[Anne_Neville]

@blue sky dreamer

Interestingly, I was told by a couple of Indian Muslims that they would frequently eat veg-only while traveling abroad, since they couldn’t be certain the meat they were eating was halal.

Some Jews who keep kosher do the same thing. We assume that meat at a restaurant will not be kosher unless it’s a kosher restaurant. I would assume that the same would hold for meat being halal. I’ll eat fish in restaurants if I know it’s a kosher species of fish- kosher species of fish don’t have to be treated in any specific way to be kosher. That’s not the case for kosher species of birds or mammals, though. AIUI, halal animals (mammals, at least- don’t know about birds) also have to be slaughtered and the meat treated in a certain way for it to be halal.

And then there’s the fact that, in most cases, it’s much simpler to say “I’m vegetarian” rather than to list the things you can and can’t eat, especially if you’re not a native speaker of the local language. Saying you’re vegetarian might also make it more likely that your dish won’t contain meat stock or be cooked with animal fat.

@acsenray

Purity is an important concept in Hinduism. You can’t make a dish contaminated by the presence of beef clean just by removing the chunks of beef.

Same thing with kashrut- you can’t make a dish kosher by picking off the bacon or whatever. And, of course, a restaurant or cook that makes a dish with beef would have no reason not to use beef stock in it, which you can’t pick out.

In many cases, in India, “meat” means “goat’s meat” only. the most traditional Hindus would eat only goats.

Would they eat lamb as well, or is that just something that Indian restaurants in the US serve because goat meat doesn’t appeal to most Americans? (I’d try it if I could find kosher goat meat, but that’s very unlikely)

Bengali Brahmins are omnivorous

Does that mean they have no religious restrictions on what they can eat (as it would if you said someone was omnivorous in the US), or just that they eat some kinds of meat?

I read somewhere that, within an ethnic group, dietary rules tend to be more restrictive for higher-caste people. Is that generally true?

I have read that alcohol is forbidden in Hinduism. Do most Hindus in India follow that rule? What about Hindus in the US?

@Anaamika

You’ll be surprised to hear I have thought the same things about suicide, blue sky dreamer. Suicide in Hindi is “atma-hatya”, which means soul-killing. Meaning you don’t go to moksha, which is the ultimate release and the Eternal Oneness with the Supreme Being.

AIUI, that’s not the same thing as the Christian concept of eternal damnation for suicides. From what I’ve read and heard, the vast majority of Hindus don’t believe in eternal damnation. If you don’t go to moksha, you reincarnate.

Do most Hindus hope or expect to go to moksha after their current lifetime, or do they expect to reincarnate a few more times?

For one thing, no one talks about mental illness in the Hindu world. It’s a very taboo subject. I grew up rather looking down on people who claimed to be mentally ill; it’s only been in recent years I have vastly changed my mindset on the situation. So no one talks about the causes that lead to suicide. If someone does commit suicide, it’s blamed on a third party - the schoolwork, the drugs, the alcohol, bad friends. And it’s never talked about much.

Non-Hindus in the US aren’t necessarily that far from that situation, either. There has been a stigma surrounding mental illness and suicide until very recently- still is, in a lot of ways.

@acsenray

Certain social and family pressures are put on young people to conform and to succeed. They are unable to handle such pressures. The specifics might be different, but it seems to me that it’s not all that different from youth suicide in other countries.

I’ve heard (from Slashdot, so I don’t know how reliable this is) that some Indian cultures put a very high value on education and getting a degree. Someone in the US might think of a person who dropped out of college to found their own company as a success, but people in those Indian cultures would not think of them as as much of a success, because they dropped out and didn’t get a degree. So there really aren’t as many alternative paths to success if you can’t hack it in a degree program.

[Anaamika]

Anne, I would find it disgustingly arrogant if I met someone who believed they were going to attain eternal salvation after their current life. That being said, I don’t find many people who think about moksha at all. Even when they believe in reincarnation. It’s mostly an unspoken belief, that one day we will all attain it, or maybe they don’t believe in it at all.

I’ve always had trouble finding Hindus who wish to discuss their personal beliefs at length, so I can’t say I’ve had much conversation. Generally the people whom I talk to kind of dismiss it with a “whatever you believe will be fine”. I almost wish my brother* would have said more when I told him I was atheist, but he just shrugged. And omy family very much takes it all for granted.

As for asians in school, Anne you are not entirely wrong. However, going into business after finishing school is looked upon as just fine. School is most important though. I don’t like most of M. Night Shyamalan’s movies but as someone said around here (I think it was anu-lala) I cheer him just because it’s an Indian in the arts, and that is kind of looked down upon in my culture.

[Acsenray]

@Anne Neville

Would they eat lamb as well, or is that just something that Indian restaurants in the US serve because goat meat doesn’t appeal to most Americans?

I don’t think lamb is very commonly available in India, but you can get it if you go to the right places – just like with beef or pork. It just wasn’t part of the Indian econo-ecological system, traditionally.

Does that mean they have no religious restrictions on what they can eat (as it would if you said someone was omnivorous in the US), or just that they eat some kinds of meat?

Well, they’re not supposed to eat beef. But, as I said, there is a tendency for more affluent and educated people (men especially) to be willing to eat beef if offered (usually outside the home). But beef is not commonly available on a day-to-day basis, anyway, in India.

I read somewhere that, within an ethnic group, dietary rules tend to be more restrictive for higher-caste people. Is that generally true?

Kind of, yes. Brahmins are supposed to be paragons of virtue, so they are supposed to live with more restrictions. On the other hand, there are a lot of affluent and educated Brahmins, and so see what I say above.

I have read that alcohol is forbidden in Hinduism.

(1) No, because “Hinduism” doesn’t really forbid anything, even beef. Restrictions arise from social history, not from religious authorities.

(2) No, because most Hindus don’t recognize any restrictions on alcohol.

(3) Kind of. In my father’s generation (born 1937) and earlier, among the educated and affluent middle class, use of alcohol was seen as signifying low class and bad character.

Do most Hindus in India follow that rule? What about Hindus in the US?

I think up to about the 1970s or so, middle class Indians looked down on the use of alcohol. It doesn’t really seem to be true any more, except to the extent that among more conservative middle class families, alcohol might not be served at home.

Do most Hindus hope or expect to go to moksha after their current lifetime, or do they expect to reincarnate a few more times?

As Anaamika said, I don’t think very many Hindus think much about it, but there is probably an assumption that one will be reincarnated. Hindus don’t really focus on the idea of being judged after death.

I’ve heard (from Slashdot, so I don’t know how reliable this is) that some Indian cultures put a very high value on education and getting a degree.

(1) In many cases, doing well academically is the only path to success.

(2) Traditionally, among Brahmins and other high castes, doing business is looked on as dirty work. The literal translation of the Bengali for “going into business” is “descending into business,” implying that one is doing something beneath oneself.

Someone in the US might think of a person who dropped out of college to found their own company as a success, but people in those Indian cultures would not think of them as as much of a success, because they dropped out and didn’t get a degree.

There are people in India who succeed in business and they find ample rewards for their success. It is a very capitalistic society. And the relatives always seem to come around when someone strikes it rich. This has been true throughout history.

[Anne_Neville]

@Anaamika

As for asians in school, Anne you are not entirely wrong. However, going into business after finishing school is looked upon as just fine. School is most important though.

What would they think of a Larry Ellison or a Bill Gates, both of whom dropped out of college to work and became very successful financially, but never got a college degree? Of course their relatives would come around and try to get money from them, as they would in any culture from pretty much anyone who made a lot of money doing anything, but would the relatives also secretly look down on them a little bit for not having a degree? Would they perhaps feel a little inferior to people with degrees (like I feel somewhat inferior to Mr Neville and some of my friends because they have PhDs and I don’t, even though I make more money than they do, AFAIK).

@acsenray

I don’t think lamb is very commonly available in India, but you can get it if you go to the right places – just like with beef or pork. It just wasn’t part of the Indian econo-ecological system, traditionally.

That’s rather surprising, actually- sheep were originally domesticated in the Middle East, just like goats, so you wouldn’t think there would be that much trouble getting them to India, sheep thrive in marginal lands for cows and other livestock, as well as providing meat, milk, and wool, so you’d think the Indians would have found them useful.

[Anaamika]

@Anne Neville

What would they think of a Larry Ellison or a Bill Gates, both of whom dropped out of college to work and became very successful financially, but never got a college degree? Of course their relatives would come around and try to get money from them, as they would in any culture from pretty much anyone who made a lot of money doing anything, but would the relatives also secretly look down on them a little bit for not having a degree? Would they perhaps feel a little inferior to people with degrees (like I feel somewhat inferior to Mr Neville and some of my friends because they have PhDs and I don’t, even though I make more money than they do, AFAIK).

They were lucky. Seriously.

It’s hard to explain. In India, in many places there’s a great deal of corruption. If you have a degree and no money you at least have a chance of getting somewhere. If you have no degree and money, then you have a chance, but people look upon you as “the one who’s living off his parents’ money”. It’s all about your position in society, and the only other way to get that other than bribery is education and hoping the person interviewing the candidates is at least somewhat honest.

When my uncle came to the States last May, I quizzed him in detail on the level of corruption and bribery in India. I guess I wanted to believe that all of what I heard was not true. Instead, I had it all confirmed and verified. Corruption is gone crazy over there.

That’s rather surprising, actually- sheep were originally domesticated in the Middle East, just like goats, so you wouldn’t think there would be that much trouble getting them to India, sheep thrive in marginal lands for cows and other livestock, as well as providing meat, milk, and wool, so you’d think the Indians would have found them useful.

I’ve not heard of any sheep either. Nor do I see them in any sort of pop culture. What’s more, when you go to India, you see pigs, cows, dogs, roaming the streets but I have never ever seen a sheep. I never thought about it until you pointed it out. Why don’t we have sheep?

*I starred “brother” earlier and never explained. He is as a matter of fact not my real blood brother but my rakhi brother. However, he was “adopted” by my aunt as well.

[Acsenray]

@Anne Neville

What would they think of a Larry Ellison or a Bill Gates, both of whom dropped out of college to work and became very successful financially, but never got a college degree? Of course their relatives would come around and try to get money from them, as they would in any culture from pretty much anyone who made a lot of money doing anything, but would the relatives also secretly look down on them a little bit for not having a degree?

I don’t know that they would look down on them, but they would think “It’s nice they’ve done well, but they should have finished their degrees, just in case things hadn’t worked out.”

The corruption angle that Anaamika mentions is pretty significant. Basically, if you’re successful in business, it’s assumed that you couldn’t have don it unless (1) you’re a cheat, (2) you’re involved with the mafia, (3) you bribe people, and (4) do all kinds of other bad things in order to rake in the loot.

Take a look at the Satyajit Ray movie The Middleman in which the scion of a good, Brahmin family doesn’t pass with “honours” because of a lazy and corrupt exam grading system. He fails to get a “good government job” (the mainstay of the middle class) and “descends into business,” where his seminal experience is hiring a prostitute in order to get a client to deal with him. Of course, it is also impled that bribery is rampant in the government office where the protagonist’s brother works, but that is seen more as a sign of the decline of civilization; whereas, corruption in business is just part of the nature of things.

[carterba]

@Polerius

I’m in engineering (maybe that’s where the skew is coming from)
Between grad school, conferences, and work, I think I have met over 100 Indians well enough to know their vegetarian/meat eating status. Out of those, I would say 90-95% were vegetarians. The sample size is a bit too large for it to be a random effect.

Maybe vegetarians are more likely to become engineers

I’ll back you up a bit: I’m in CS, and the vast majority of Indians I’ve met are from the south (Bangalore, Hyderabad, Madras. Is Bombay considered south?). Most of them are vegetarians; the few exceptions didn’t eat meat until they came to the US.

[Acsenray]

@carterba

Is Bombay considered south?

No.

[Anaamika]

@acsenray

No.

It is to me. It certainly depends on outlook. Map of India

Considering my people are from somewhere between Amritsar and New Delhi, yeah, it seems kind of far south to me…but it’s not true south. India is HUGE.

[Acsenray]

@Anaamika

It is to me. It certainly depends on outlook. Map of India

Considering my people are from somewhere between Amritsar and New Delhi, yeah, it seems kind of far south to me…but it’s not true south. India is HUGE.

Well, my people are from Bengal, so geographically speaking, Bombay is southward for us too.

However, I think you know that, in a cultural sense, the South is where the Dravidian languages are spoken by the majority – Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, Kerala, and Tamil Nadu or, in a historical sense, the cultural domains of Hyderabad, Mysore, and Madras.

[Acsenray]

@carterba

Is Bombay considered south?). Most of them are vegetarians; the few exceptions didn’t eat meat until they came to the US.

I should add, however, that many Bombayites are ethnically Gujarati, who are vegetarian.

Gujaratis are a significant ethnic group in the United States, actually. Many are small businessmen and they help their relatives and fellow villagers come over and get established. All the Patels who own small motels along U.S. highways are Gujarati. (You can often tell (North) Indian ethnic groups by their family names.)

[blue_sky_dreamer]

@Anaamika

I hunger to find more punjabis locally and I find it very difficult to do so.

Maybe you need to come a little further south? I thought central New Jersey’s Indian population was heavily Punjabi and Gujarati.

@Anaamika

For one thing, no one talks about mental illness in the Hindu world. It’s a very taboo subject. I grew up rather looking down on people who claimed to be mentally ill; it’s only been in recent years I have vastly changed my mindset on the situation. So no one talks about the causes that lead to suicide. If someone does commit suicide, it’s blamed on a third party - the schoolwork, the drugs, the alcohol, bad friends. And it’s never talked about much.

Gotcha. I see acsenray’s point about stresses and the parallels to youth suicide in other countries. It also makes sense that a suicide owing to mental illness might be covered up by a more mundane explanation. I’m sure it happens here too.

@Anaamika

As for the red flags - I’m not sure what you’re referring to, but red is a very important color in our culture. We wear red for our weddings, and red in our hair when we get married, and red for the temples, and red for the paints that we use on the gods’ statues. Red is the color of celebration, and a sign of our love for the gods and each other. On the wedding day, red is the color of lust and sensuality.

I should maybe have said banner rather than flag, because that’s what was flying at this particular temple… but I did notice the red prayer shawls, and have seen enough Bollywood movies to know that red was wedding color. Just wondered what the red signified, and you’ve explained that, thanks.

@Anaamika

When my uncle came to the States last May, I quizzed him in detail on the level of corruption and bribery in India. I guess I wanted to believe that all of what I heard was not true. Instead, I had it all confirmed and verified. Corruption is gone crazy over there.

That was my experience there too… there was nothing so minor that a bribe of some kind wouldn’t ease the way. Especially if someone caught wind of the fact that a Westerner or NRI was involved somehow. Getting out of a bogus traffic ticket in Jaipur was a fun experience… the only time I ever saw my driver sweat.

Another question: I once knew a couple of Brahmin guys, one a Marathi whose family came from somewhere around Goa, and one an Iyengar (I think) Tamil from Madras. Both were working in their own professions, as were their fathers. If I understood right, though, both dads also undertook regular priestly duties (the Marathi guy referred to his “family temple” on a several occasions), and each dad was disappointed that their sons were not sufficiently devout to be more active in a similar way. Is it common for Brahmin men to have some occupation in addition to acting as priests?

Oh, and I meant to ask about this earlier:

@acsenray

There are some hardcore types who are concerned about spiritual purity.

Is there a tendency for such people to be politically involved in Shiv Sena and the like? Sometimes it seems that the hardcore types fill the same niche in India that some fundie Christian groups do w/r/t protests against “immoral” things (shops selling Valentine’s Day cards, movie posters with “racy” scenes, etc.) and wanting to change the laws to reflect their views.

[Acsenray]

@blue sky dreamer

Another question: I once knew a couple of Brahmin guys, one a Marathi whose family came from somewhere around Goa, and one an Iyengar (I think) Tamil from Madras. Both were working in their own professions, as were their fathers. If I understood right, though, both dads also undertook regular priestly duties (the Marathi guy referred to his “family temple” on a several occasions), and each dad was disappointed that their sons were not sufficiently devout to be more active in a similar way. Is it common for Brahmin men to have some occupation in addition to acting as priests?

Brahmins are always eligible to work as priests. Brahmins also tend to be educated and affluent and so have jobs in all kinds of fields. Generally speaking, only the poorest and least educated Brahmins work exclusively as priests. Other Brahmins might do a little priesting on the side for friends and family or have a side business temple like your friends do. Generally families expect their sons to help out at the family temple, often without compensation. I have a friend whose father runs a family temple full time. The elder son is a salaried priest and administrator at the temple. The younger son is often criticized for not taking time off from his job to help out at the temple for free.

Is there a tendency for such people to be politically involved in Shiv Sena and the like? Sometimes it seems that the hardcore types fill the same niche in India that some fundie Christian groups do w/r/t protests against “immoral” things (shops selling Valentine’s Day cards, movie posters with “racy” scenes, etc.) and wanting to change the laws to reflect their views.

I don’t really know what the statistics bear out. There are hardcore fundamentalist types and there are hardcore fundamentalist agitators.

[mallurox]

@blue sky dreamer

…

Another question: I once knew a couple of Brahmin guys, one a Marathi whose family came from somewhere around Goa, and one an Iyengar (I think) Tamil from Madras. Both were working in their own professions, as were their fathers. If I understood right, though, both dads also undertook regular priestly duties (the Marathi guy referred to his “family temple” on a several occasions), and each dad was disappointed that their sons were not sufficiently devout to be more active in a similar way. Is it common for Brahmin men to have some occupation in addition to acting as priests?

Oh, and I meant to ask about this earlier:

Is there a tendency for such people to be politically involved in Shiv Sena and the like? Sometimes it seems that the hardcore types fill the same niche in India that some fundie Christian groups do w/r/t protests against “immoral” things (shops selling Valentine’s Day cards, movie posters with “racy” scenes, etc.) and wanting to change the laws to reflect their views.

Hello All! Long time lurker, infrequent poster here. A bit about my background as i feel its relevant. Im a fair dinkum Hindu, working in Bangalore in a tech support job. yes i am a walking stereotype arent i ?

I am reading this thread with interest for obvious reasons and i’d like to contribute. Hinduism [as i beleive it] is less a religion and more a way of life. One doesnt get to be a Hindu by doing things like visiting the places of worship on specific days, carrying out rituals, etc . Your identity as a Hindu is that you are one. Sorry if that sounds a bit like “Oreintal Mysticism”

Every religion has a ritual/social aspect and a spiritual aspect. In Hinduism the important part is probably the spiritual one. The ways i become a hindu is part of my everyday action without me realising. I think that to hurt someone or **something **is to invite trouble for example thats a hindu concept, i think that the concept of “God is within me” is probably correct, I dont judge other religions for their beliefs, i have no concept of Sin, I can see God in rocks, animals, trees and humans. Personally i’d like to clarify that im agnostic :).

Like India, hinduism is also vast and diverse. A jeweller praying to goddess lakshmi for wealth and distributing sweets to “poor people” for charity is as much a hindu as me - thinking of Vasudeva Kudambakam and Karma Yoga while doing nothing about it. We are free to choose our gods our beliefs, our paths which might make us better humans.

This freedom of choice places too much responsibility on mere humans. Naturally we abuse it, and India is a great place to screw things up. To answer your question blue sky dreamer - sure we have thugs in the Shiv Sena masquerading as saviours of the religion. Thats the case everywhere in the world. Nobody is fooled by the political mileage these sorts derive, and changing laws to enforce moral policing would be laughed out of our Parlaiment. Moral policing by way of law is a very US phenomenon. Our moral police keeps up appearances and feign outrage periodically. We censor films that tax paying adults can watch.

I am not aware of the US side of things, but in South India it is not uncommon for non-rich older Brahmins to go for priestly duties to supplement their income. Generally they have a family tradition of officiating weddings, deaths, pujas etc. For most brahmins however being a priest is not a career option
Amongst my generation it is rare and it does not pay very well. They do not get radicalised by lack of employment / deprivation if thats what you were asking. They dont go fundie.

[Anaamika]

Hey, why doesn’t anyone answer my sheep question? Why are there no sheep in India?

blue sky dreamer, I am divided on how much I want to hang out with Indians anyway. I really would like to hang out with more young people, my age, but where they are, usually you find the whole gaggle and I’m not that ready to be that involved. I just want a few semi-casual people to go dancing with or whatever.

[mallurox]

@Anaamika

Hey, why doesn’t anyone answer my sheep question? Why are there no sheep in India?

We have sheep about 40 breeds of them - oh yeah!

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/004/X6532E/X6532E01.htm

[Anaamika]

@mallurox

We have sheep about 40 breeds of them - oh yeah!

sheep and goat breeds of india

Oh, cool! But it always says “N/A” on the latest stats in Punjab. Does that mean there’s no more sheep there?

[mallurox]

@Anaamika

Oh, cool! But it always says “N/A” on the latest stats in Punjab. Does that mean there’s no more sheep there?

Probably the Sardars have eaten all of them and wouldnt answer when the census takers asked them.

Curiously enough on a thread about Hinduism we are digressing about sheep and … shepherds…

[Anaamika]

@mallurox

Probably the Sardars have eaten all of them and wouldnt answer when the census takers asked them.

Curiously enough on a thread about Hinduism we are digressing about sheep and … shepherds…

BWAHAHAHA. Made me crack right up.
And it’s my thread, so there is no digressing! All topics are equally valid…provided they’re about Hinduism or India!

[mallurox]

@Anaamika

And it’s my thread, so there is no digressing! All topics are equally valid…provided they’re about Hinduism or India!

OK Mother Goddess