I don’t know of a general bar, but consider:
(1) It was Delhi, a place generally known to be dangerous for women.
(2) It was a movie theatre, a place generally known to be dangerous for women.
I’ve seen guys and girls going out in groups together in places like Bombay and Calcutta, without the presence of “adult” supervision. Maybe there were other factors that were not so apparent. Differences in specific circumstances are often difficult for an outsider to grasp, even for someone like me.
By the way, acsenray, do you have a full cite for Marvin Harris? Sounds like an interesting read.
Oh, and yet another thing that comes to mind re Persian/Muslim influence in the north:
A guide at Khajuraho pointed out that the statues of women were carved with their saris draped below their navels, in keeping with the sensual theme of a lot of the statuary but also just the common practice at the time the temples were built (10th to 11th centuries). The guide said that wearing saris in that fashion became morally unacceptable after the Moghul invasions, leading to the present attitude that proper women cover their navels while exposing them is somewhat daring and risqué. The guide also claimed that the practice of purdah among some upper caste Indians was also an imported Muslim practice, only Indian women tended to be confined to the family compound rather than wear a burqa in public.
Are these legitimate examples of cross-cultural phenomena, or would you suggest alternative explanations?
Thank you for your responses. Really. 
Okidoki. Help me out here. The caste system functions to separate people by class, so wouldn’t “educated, white-color, middle- and upper-class people” be rather self selecting anyway? I don’t mean to discount ethnic group on this. For example: If my mother insisted I marry a Harvard Grad, the chances of him being white, upper class and educated are pretty damn good, it would effectively eliminate MOST opportunities for me to marry a black guy, without necessarily saying so.
What you stated about arranged marriages meshes with what my perception is. If that is the culture you are raised in, even if it changes a bit, it isn’t the horror that we americans perceive it to be. I’m personally contemplating my own marriage choice and realize that I may not be the best judge of who is right for me. I’m sure it boils down to how marriage is perceived within the culture. Family seems to be A number 1 among Indians. So taking steps to make sure that is a stable thing seems to be the smart thing to do. (Tangent, so how about Indian divorce? Is that done?)
I must say, reading this thread makes Hinduism sound like the most rational, laid back religion/world view ever. I definitely think that the personalness of it is something that americans could use a strong dose of. Even though I am an atheist, I’ve always thought that personal beliefs SHOULD be so strong and so personal that even trying to talk to someone else would be an exercise in futility.
I tend to shy away from religion threads, but if all were like this one, I doubt that would be the case.
Re: Eve-teasing- I learned about it here, and The Guys were surprised when my husband asked them about it. Not many KKK folks think there is a problem with racism. The dilemma for me is this: Women seem to be as encouraged as men to get educated. If the society is so male dominated that this habit is perceived as ok, how on earth do they still think women should be educated? In the book I’m reading, a wedding just took place and the older women hid upstairs and peeked at the ceremony because they should not be seen what with all the singing and dancing going on.
My gosh, I’m 124 pages into a 1400 page book. I may have more than 1400 pages of questions by the time its over.
While researching Marvin Harris, I found this work of his:
1975 - “Why a Perfect Knowledge of All the Rules That One Must Know in Order to Act Like a Native Cannot Lead to a Knowledge of How Natives Act.” Journal of Anthropological Research 30: 242-251
The title of which cracks me up, which seems to be the rub of anthropology. We can seek understand, but ultimately, there is a limit to what we can really know.
Or as we say here in the american south: A cat can have kittens in the oven, but that don’t make 'em biscuits.
Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches
Cannibals and Kings
Good to Eat
It is my understanding that purdah and sexual repression among Hindus bears influence by Muslim and Britsh Victorians.
Not really, not necessarily. There are affluent people of all castes, although the upper classes are disproportionately represented. (However, although Brahmins are generally considered the “highest” caste, they might actually be underrepresented among the very rich.)
Another thing to understand is that “upper caste” may include multiple groups. As I mentioned, in Bengal, the upper castes are the Brahmins (priests), Vaidyas (healers), and Kayasthas (clerks), and the vast majority of Bengali professionals, politicians, notable artists, etc., will be from one of these three castes. That doesn’t mean that the other castes will be completely excluded, however. And from a socio-cultural standpoint, it is difficult to separate these three castes into further strata. The cross-caste marriages in my family (the ones that stick within the ethnic group) are within these three castes.
Now, it may seem that there is not much remarkable going on here, but it’s important to understand that caste has always been a separate category from wealth status as a component of Hindu culture. Traditionally, they are both things that a parent will look for in a mate for his or her child. And, until recently, mere wealth was not enough to overcome a caste difference.
Caste is not a race or an ethnic group or a wealth status. It’s a completely separate factor. And while, as I said, higher castes are overrepresented among the educated and the affluent, there are enough successful and educated people from other castes that it makes caste-mixing possible today.
I don’t quite understand what you’re getting at here. What’s the factor that you’re equating to “Harvard grad”?
Traditionally, no (among Hindus, anyway; divorce has always existed as “right” in Islam). These days, it’s becoming more and more possible, but it’s still not very common.
What is the connection you’re making between education and physically harassing women in public?
Also, remember, eve-teasers are assaulting strangers. They would never stand for demeaning their own sisters. This kind of hypocrisy isn’t uncommon on the part of those harboring sexist notions, right?
As I said, it’s really hard to apply generalities to a specific situation. Diversity is rampant and inconsistency is the rule.
However, there might be something relevant here – However, liberated the youth might be, it is considered shameful to do certain things in front of elders (dancing, smoking, drinking, casual inter-gender contact, etc.). If the older women were present, the youths might not feel comfortable doing their thing. Propriety is owed to elders more than equals and owed to women more than men.
On the other hand, there might be older, more conservative women who just might not want to acknowledge that such shameful things actually go on. (But not the women in this case, I guess.)
Thanks, acsenray, it’s much appreciated.
From what I’m told, it’s rare and brings considerable social stigma on the ex-wife, apparently less so for the ex-husband. I was told of one instance where a woman moved to the US with her then-husband, divorced him for abuse and returned to India, but in the end returned to the US because her status caused a lot of difficulty for herself and for her parents. Ex-husband in the meantime got remarried with little trouble.
Among the few (older) women I discussed this with, a woman should be educated so that she can be an educated mother, as well as have something in common with her husband. If you read the marriage ads, you’ll see that it’s not uncommon for a guy to specifiy not only desired caste/religious/ethnic background but also her educational background.
Generally speaking, I found that women felt considerable social pressure to be married by the age of 25, so pursuit of higher education and/or career happened only with husband’s support and approval. Once children enter the picture, many women then stay home since child-rearing is a key role for them in the family.
One totally candid comment from a young guy that might provide a bit of insight for you: “An unmarried girl is a HUGE headache for her family.” An Indian classmate of mine, who is now in her early 40s, has never married and gets constant grief from her relatives. She said she does her best to avoid family functions now because her aunts have now resorted to springing 20-something distant relatives on her in an effort to get her hitched. 
(In her case, she’s from a well-to-do family and her only sibling is gay, so there appears to be some angling for her family assets involved.)
In other words, I’m saying that “educated, white-collar, middle- and upper-class people” is going to encompass people of different castes, most of them “upper” (but not all), but still different castes.
Also, another thing to understand about the caste system in India is that it is not a unitary system. Forget the “four-color” Brahmin-Kshatriya-Vaishya-Sudra system that’s laid out in books. The caste system is very regional. About the only thing the caste system has in common across India is that there is generally a “Brahmin” caste at the top. The Bengali Vaidya (healer) and Kayastha (scribe) castes don’t exist among other ethnic groups. And, generally speaking, there are no Bengali Kshatriyas (warriors) or Vaishyas (merchants) – although there might be roughly equivalent castes, they are not the same caste, and that is key. So when you’re talking about mixing people by ethnic group, you are necessarily mixing people along caste lines as well.
I would very gently like to point out that it’s Shyamalan. Really, it’s not hard to spell.
I saw the most amusing Barney Miller once. In it, a young Hare Krishna-ite is brought into the station. The detective asks her what her name is, and he says “Praknamurti”. He looks askance. She then asks what his name is, and he says “Wojohowicz”, which I think is actually way more difficult to spell. Just a note on the perspective of which you’re coming too.
Anyway. Regarding the caste system. What little I know is that I am of mixed caste. Never has my mother’s Brahmin family ever showed to me in anyway that my father’s Vaishya (farmer) caste is any lower or inferior. In fact, they are richer, so they get a little more respect in society. And that is the total extent of my knowledge. No one talks about it.
Eve-teasing. ascenray says plenty, so I’ll just add that I actually have experienced it on many occasion. I have gone out, in the daytime, with another girl, but I would never dare to go anywhere in Delhi on my own. Especially since I am relatively fair-skinned and obviously foreign.
Arranged marriages. The way it works nowadays, at least in the more affluent families, is that the parents will bring home the “nephew of a business partner” or something. You are allowed to date, somewhat, in public only. And you do have veto power if he is absolutely horrible - but you have to be careful as that’s an insult to the family, too.
What my cousins - even the girls - do nowadays is have boyfriends/girlfriends and then marry into their own class or social standing. From what I can gather most of the time the girls at least do not have sex, but there probably is heavy petting. Boys are different as always but we do have our segment of people, like some Christians, who believe in complete chastity.
Divorce. Just. Not. Done. In America, a lady in the neighborhood divorced her husband. He was aggressively violent and was eventually committed. I don’t know the details, but what’s relavent here is she then became the gossip focus of the community!
I believe this stringent rule against divorce is both good and bad. Bad for obvious reasons, but good because the idea of breaking up is literally the last thing that enters your head. In a good relationship, this serves to get you through even nasty fights. This concept of permanence shows up throughout our culture.
Purdah is definitely a Muslim, and specifically, King Akbar sort of thing.
Lastly, the openness of our religion. As far as I know Hinduism is one of the few major religions in the world that does not say “I am the only path and you must only worship this way”. I’ve always been obscurely proud of that.
In the last several years India has been run by the Bhartiya Janta Party which is a very pro-Hindu and somewhat extremist government. I think they have lost power lately so it might get better.
You clarified this for me, I was equating a Harvard grad with say, someone being of a particular caste or caste group or even ethnic group. I guess I’m trying to find out if say, someone Brahmin decides to marry a Dajit, would that raise eyebrows? I assume it is more acceptable to marry someone of a similar caste, but varying too much upon that might be frowned upon. I do understand that caste is separate from socio-economics and that they are not necessarily tied together, but historically it has seemed that ones caste, especially the lower ones, most definitely influence your ability to gain wealth/education.
Well, the connection I’m making is the hypocrisy you mention. Here, our rights to be treated as humans coincided with our rights to vote, be educated, own property. We have a long way to go for certain. I get frustrated with the current incarnation of “liberated women” in our society especially among the younger girls (britney spears, et al) who overly sexualize themselves and do not see the corresponding rakish behavior of boys their age in response. I hear young guys now talk in ways any guy of my generation would be routinely ostracized for. So in a way, I think we are going backwards. However, speaking of guys of MY generation the acceptance level of a guy that has behaviors like eve-teasing is pretty damned low. I tend to think of the eve-teasing types as stupid, uneducated, tactless, classless troglodytes. The thought that it is okidoki is seriously disturbing to me. And no, it isn’t a hypocrisy I can even understand. If you wouldn’t treat your mother or your sister that way, why on earth would you treat a complete stranger that way? Especially given your statement further down
Ultimately, cultures act the way cultures act. There may not be a particular piece of the culture that encourages things like eve-teasing, however, it may be part and parcel of the entire cultural quilt, which unfortunately, would be harder to eradicate.
In re: Divorce rates- Divorce rates also coincided with american womens ability to support themselves. We no longer feel the compulsion to “stick with it for the kids” that we did before. I’m trying to wrap my head around an arranged marriage, where love isn’t really the end-all be-all, leading to divorce. If it is thought of as say, a family arrangement primarily, how does one tell the family that it ain’t worth it?
I can say that our divorce rates are abysmal, and what we as americans do, doesn’t seem to work too well, so we certainly can’t criticize other systems too harshly.
Dalit, you mean? Yeah, I guess so. Again, the specific circumstances are important, but I’m pretty certain that I’m safe in saying that Brahmin-Dalit marriages are rare, but are probably not entirely non-existent.
This is rather complicated in India and I don’t know enough to make any conclusions. There are government quotas which reserve a large portion of higher education seats for “scheduled castes and scheduled tribes,” so educated people from lower castes are not uncommon. Obviously, there are going to be a lot more uneducated people, but I guess I’m not sure what question I’m trying to answer here.
Are you asking me what I see or what I feel about it?
:dubious: Well, in theory, right? Gloria Steinem and Women’s Sufferage aren’t contemporaries.
I take it you are aware that hypocrisy is common around the world?
Part and part of the entire cultural quilt? Well, personally speaking, I haven’t heard anyone defending eve-teasing. And Delhi’s reputation with regard to this aspect is not one that is exactly admired around the country. I really must emphasize the cultural diversity of India.
I can’t say I know enough about the situation to know whether anything is being done or what can be done. Women in Calcutta definitely have it easier, but maybe that’s because there are so many radicals, atheists, intellectuals, and communists around. Maybe we can move some of them to Delhi. Thin out those loutish Panjabis a bit. (Just joking, Anaamika!)
I don’t understand this sentence. Do you care to clarify? From the Indian perspective, love is important to a marriage. It’s just not considered a pre-requisite.
As has been noted, divorce is still rare in Indian society and divorced women don’t have it easy. I don’t understand your question.
It might be significant to note that in a traditional joint-family situation, it is possible for a husband and wife who don’t get along well to limit their interaction with each other … Although, the wife is going to have limited opportunities to seek physical relationships, there are going to be enough people around to have relationships of some kind.
In Bengali culture, in fact, the relationship between a woman and her husband’s younger brother is considered particularly important. Traditionally, they would be close in age and they would be living in the same house. A woman woman was free to pursue a closer, less formal relationship with her brother-in-law. Not surprisingly, this opened this relationship up as the most likely avenue for extra-marital affairs.
Also, I’d have to say that from what I’ve heard, workplace sexual harrassment is a problem, too, even in Calcutta and Bombay. Among very conservative families, it is still assumed that a young girl who works in an office is a floozy. India’s civil court system, unfortunately, is not exactly equipped to help put such things to rights, like in America (and who wants “tort reform” again?).
Yeah, I was going to say something too.
And a limited number of times. A cousin of mine was telling me how he had narrowed his choices down to two and he was feeling the pressure, because he had been out with this one girl three times, and it was starting to look bad. When in the end he rejected her, it was a bit of an insult (what sealed his decision was her saying that she didn’t really have any friends). Worked out in the end, because the girl he did marry is great.
This cousin was one of those guys who dated a lot of girls in college (I can’t say for sure, but I doubt very much that it ever got as far as sex), but in the end opted for an arranged marriage, because he knew that whoever he married was going to be moving into their two-bedroom flat with him and his parents and he wanted someone who was going to fit into such a situation.
My wife drove her mother bonkers by rejecting guys. (“What do you mean “no”? Who ever heard of the girl saying no?”) Boy, am I glad she did.
In my opinion, the lack of a legitimate outlet for sexuality or even, often, just plain interaction with the opposite sex for many Indians has resulted in a phenomenon in which some young men become pathological – engaging in stalker behaviour and then going on a rampage when they get rejected by a girl. There are regular stories of young men using acid to scar the face of a girl who has rejected them – “If I can’t have her no one can.” One of my cousins was subjected to some mild stalking – but fortunately it didn’t escalate. One can’t help feel sorry for the young man in some cases – confused and overwhelmed by adolescence with no legitimate outlet. Most kids in joint families don’t even get enough privacy to take care of business on their own.
I’ve heard several stories along these lines. One relative of mine left her husband when she figured out that he wasn’t really interested in women. She’s now living with her mother and brother doing nothing much with her education and intelligence and keeping dozens of cats and dogs. I don’t know about her (ex?-)husband, but I assume the situation isn’t really interfering with his choices much. Her brother’s wife left him, but won’t give him a divorce (her family bought off all the divorce lawyers in town), so he has to hide the fact that he’s got a girlfriend in her 40s who herself is upset that she can’t marry him.
Just to confirm what Blue Sky suggested, however, that some upper-class Hindus did practice purdah, particularly when government was dominated by Muslims. I don’t know that any do today, however.
Thanks folks.
In my defense regarding M. Night Shyamalan, since I recall his name being spelled wrong repeatedly on the Oscars or whatever award show, I did not feel comfortable finding a reputable source for the correct spelling of his name. Especially since there is a debate going on right now on how to spell Gandhi. I certainly meant no disrespect.
When discussing cultures sometimes it can be as hard as describing the color blue to a blind man. I understand that. I also understand that the translation between the two is speculative precisely because of culture.
Having a caste system is something completely foreign to me. When seeking understanding, I try to relate things to something I am familiar with and go from there. Before I read this thread, I really likened the caste system to our racism here. That may have (and seems to be) a faulty premise, but ya gotta start somewhere.
See? Here, to some people, it doesn’t matter how black you are, how rich you are, how powerful you are, how respected you are. They believe they can treat you like crap for the sole reason you are black. I hear things like having seats set aside for the “protected castes” as similar to our affirmative action. That if all things were equal, it wouldn’t be an issue, but it is, so it is.
One doesn’t have to look very far in american society to see how racism and sexism make us a poorer country overall. I hate thinking that I live in a country where I would consider myself fortunate if a woman was ever elected president.
When I said part and parcel of the quilt of culture, what you mentioned regarding mens inability to date frequently or have the privacy to take matters into their own hands and how that may create a situation where they have no appropriate way to act out and end up acting out in a manner that results in eve-teasing. That don’t make it right, but it does make me understand it a bit better.
Please understand, I am not at all trying to judge, not even a little bit. The thought of having people I can ask these questions to and have them answered without them worrying about what I might think, thrills me to no end. Really! The fact that you are even answering means a lot to me and I really, really appreciate it.
I know that you giving me answer X, even if you don’t fully understand the question I mean to be asking, may only be the answer you give me and that someone elses answer may be wildly different. It’s a big, huge, honkin’ country. With a metric shitload of people, cultures, etc. I don’t expect any one person to be able to answer for the whole country.
I sincerely thank you, even if I’m having trouble trying to explain what I want explaining.
My parents are (loosely) arranging my marriage right now and I’ve been terribly guilty of this.
No one has bitched me out for saying no, though. I think my parents are pretty surprised I’m even letting them introduce me to men. The way it’s been working out is that they introduce me to the sons of friends of whomever and we talk and go out and decide if we want to continue.
I’ve said no 4 times, now. I really do like the one that’s hanging around at the present so we’ll see what happens.
Having grown up in the West, I am staggered by how much it still seems to matter to people in the US. Of all the kids on BOTH sides of my family, the only 2 who have married someone Marathi or Konkani (my family is mixed) are the Western cousins. The rest of my family lives in Mumbai and Bangalore and they’ve married North Indians, Malayalis, Gujus…whereas it’s the degenerate American cousins who chose to marry the Maharashtrians (though neither my sister nor my cousin married Brahmins)
I was engaged a while back to a north Indian whose parents made us break up because Maharashtra was too “South” for their comfort. This is code for “your fiance is too dark”. We were also from different castes (I am Brahmin on both sides, he was not). It was very, very painful and I’ve become extremely disillusioned with the Indian community since then. Growing up in the West, especially rural Canada, I didn’t get to interact with very many Indians at all, and since we were all in the minority, there was no North/South/Guju/Marathi/Punjabi distinctions. Indian was always just Indian to me, and while a strong percentage of my parents’ friends ARE Marathi, they know and interact with people from all over the country. They never even told me they preferred to have a Marathi son-in-law.
However, since that happened to me, I have to say that I am extremely unwilling to date non-Marathi men because of that experience. These days it’s either Marathi or American and I prefer Indian men (they’re cute).
anu-la1979
I guess from the perspective that saying no is the exception, to me, saying no 4 times seems rather mild. May I ask about the other 3? Were you limited by the 3 or so date thing before you said no? When mentioned upthread, that seems like very little time to get to know someone, heck, even I can be nice for 3 dates. From your perspective, what do you look for in someone if you only have a limited time to get to make such a major decision? I have in my head a picture of two people getting together with reams of notes detailing their hopes, dreams, desires, favorite movies, music, colors, # of children, dream locations, etc. Rather like our “speed dating” phenomenon.
Is the amount/type of time you are “allowed” to date someone as strict since your parents are surprised you are even letting them have a say?
Ok, googling some terms, Maharashtri seems to be the ethnic group that **anu-la1979] belongs but her caste is Brahmin. This sounds like a concrete example of what with the marrying within your ethnic group over caste statement earlier. The light is dawning.
BTW, feel free to think of me as perfectly loony. It’s ok. I am googling my heart out during all this and have taken a notepad with me as I read “A Suitable Boy.” Take heart, I have less than 1300 pages to go.
To clarify, I have said no to 4 men, not 3 dates. I’m on the 5th boy my parents have introduced me to.
I suspect I am not getting shit for this because my mom herself was very picky and said no to a lot of people.
a) I don’t have a time limit…quite a few of my “contemporaries” (girls in my financial, educational and cultural position) have opted for the same “liberal arranged marriage” scenario.
In large part this is because I don’t have any time. 90% of the girls in the Marathi community are doctors, because that’s a traditional career for my cultural background…especially for women. College fades into medical school fades into residency and before you know it you’re 28 and your parents are like “WHEN ARE YOU GETTING MARRIED??” and you realise, oh shit, I don’t really have time to hunt up a nice boy myself…
My sister also had one of these “let me introduce you” deals and she was with my brother-in-law for 3 years before they got married. However, she was only 22 when they met, and had just graduated from undergrad. My parents insisted she get her grad school thing sorted out before she got married.
For someone in my age/career stage, if you seem to get along the first time you meet…you generally get engaged 6 months to a year afterward. If it went longer than that, since I’m in my late 20s, either my parents or the boy’s parents would put their foot down and say it’s taking too long and we’re taking business elsewhere.
b)
Actually, I just talk to my suitors about whatever I feel like. It’s really not that different from dating except my parents act as a yentl and they screen all my suitors ahead of time. For instance, my parents make it very clear that
a) I’m not leaving my job to become a housewife
b) Fuck off on dowry, we spent it on our kid’s educations
c) No skin colour requirements blahblahblah
d) No pressuring her to have a baby right away blahblahblah
Once they get the impression the guy is from a moderately liberal family, like mine, they give him my phone number and he calls me up.
I don’t know why it’s so controversial seeing as so many Americans seem to find people through “connections” as well.
It might be a lot like racism, but I think you have to be aware that it’s not exactly the same as racism.
I don’t think that most Hindus will say that they believe that caste status to “treat you like crap.” However, what the caste system has done historically is define a person’s role in society.
The Bhagavad Gita was mentioned before and it bears a little explanation. In the Mahabharata, two branches of a family plunge the whole country into war over a dispute regarding which branch will rule the country. The chief battlefield commander of the army of the five Pandava brothers, the “good guys,” Arjun, sees arrayed before him many relatives, old friends, and respected elders and his nerve fails.
Arjun’s chariot driver, Krishna , gives him a little pep talk. This pep talk is the Bhagavad Gita, and basically he says: Everyone is born to a certain role (dharma) and you must fulfill that role. Yes, you might feel bad about killing your relatives, friends, and respected elders over an inheritance dispute, but that’s what you were born to do so just buck up and do it. Arjun says, “Well, why should I take your word for it?” and Krishna says, because, well, I am all of creation, and I should know. So Arjun charges into battle and slaughters thousands. The Pandavas win to the extent that, well, pretty much everyone they know except the five of them is dead.
So, interesting message, huh? Know your place. Do what you were born to do. You might not be rewarded for it, but that’s what’s important about life.
I forget what my point here is. Except that it has something to do with the societal role assigned by caste. Oh, so, in theory, it’s got nothing to do with “I get to treat you like crap,” but, rather, “You were born to serve in the role of a tailor, so do it.”
I don’t think there are many people who really believe in this kind of thing – after all, who in India is performing the role that would be assigned by caste? Few Brahmins work as priests, etc.
However, there is continued feeling to a large extent that one’s caste group is part of one’s identity, so there is still a notion that one might prefer to marry within one’s caste in order to preserve that identity.
The term is “scheduled castes and scheduled tribes” and refers to “schedules” that are appended to the Indian constitution that list all the castes and tribes that have been historically disadvantaged.
Actually, though, the “reservations” as they are called are, perhaps similar in theory, are quite different from American affirmative action in that the Indian reservations are actually a serious effort to ensure that at least some concrete number of individuals from of the affected groups are helped. I don’t know whether or to what extent it has had desirable results, but it has a significant effect on the population. In comparison, U.S. affirmative action is a joke.
Of course, as in the United States, the effort has had some backlash effects. Middle class people, who are desperate to get their children into the “right” university, hate the reservations. A few years ago, there were some public immolations by middle-class kids in protest. Someone has told me that he would never take his family to a Harijan doctor, because they are admitted to medical school and graduate based on their status rather than their performance, so why take the chance?