Wow, I haven’t seen scenes of mass celebration like this since Judy Garland single-handedlly freed Munchkinland from that awful witch. What have you slogan-chanting “anti-war” types got to say now? Ha ha ha ha!
Time to start rubbing it in, I think!
(If you’re really still against the war, I’m sure there is still a little time left to pull our troops out and put the Saddam terror aparatus back in power. If that’s what you want).
You belie your name. For example, wouldn’t it be prudent to wait to post this until after we see whether any of the dire predictions anti-war folks have made about increased destability in the region, increased terrorism recruitment, increased isolation of the US on the world stage, etc. come true?
Of course not. There’s always going to be a contingent in the pro-war movement so desperate to find some edge over anti-war arguments that they’ll ignore the anti-war arguments entirely.
Daniel
I know it may be hard to grasp, but I know of not one single anti-war person who thought we would lose the war. The outcome was never in doubt. That still doesn’t make it the right thing to do.
Wrong sentiment on the wrong day in the wrong forum, IMHO.
Hubris and premature celebration are part of our triumphalism. Perhaps room for a little irony too, if people can understand it.
I suppose you’d all rather it was two months ago when “anti-war” sentiment was still cool and not passe and a bit 2002.
Still, what the heck is the “Great Debate” that this should attempt to start, since it is posted in that forum?
I’m happy a few hundred Iraqi citizens felt safe enough to go into the streets to celebrate their freedom. There are still many who did not, there were even some who cried and worried what their future was. And there are still some firing at the US troops. Those are the people who need to be reached.
At least the soldiers had the sense not to get themselves too caught up in the moment after all they are not conquerors. Aside from the brief moment of putting the US flag over the statues head (which some officer realized was a PR mistake and ordered it down)
I still think the war was not required right a way. Iraqs threat seems to have been shown to be very limited and until they find the WMDs The United States has not proven why it had to go in now.
Remember the reason for this war was not to free the Iraqi people, but to make sure taht Saddam was no longer a threat to the US visa vi WMDs that could be sold to terrorists.
That has not been proven yet so don’t crow yet.
The real battle of rebuilding a country and relations with the world is still to come.
Look man, I can sit back, wipe my forehead, and say, “thank Jebus” that Hussein’s rule is apparently collapsing, and still think that it was a fool-ass decision to fight this war under the circumstances it was fought.
And I’ll go a step further and point out that when Napoleon III was beseiged and captured in Sedan by the Prussians in 1870, the war didn’t end, not for months. The Nazis took more casualties in France after the fall of Paris than before it was declared an open city in 1940. And in Iraq, there is still Mosul and especially Saddam’s hometown of Tikrit, where most of his goons come from.
I don’t think this war is over yet, and I don’t think this war should have been fought without a better diplomatic base from which to launch such an attack. But I am very happy that Baghdad, and the troops and civilians within it, are likely going to survive without undue suffering.
Congratulations. You chopped one head off the hydra. What are you going to do now, Heracles?
One vote for MPSIMS.
Look at the governments in the Middle East.
I WANT them destabilized! If they are destablized by the destruction of a dictator, the end of a brutal regime and the sewing of the seeds of freedom and self-rule, then so be it.
Do have any facts to substantiate this or are you in contact with weeping, fearful Iraqis personally?
Do you think the celebration was limited to the one scene that ws broadcast on all the networks?
I Know Lots, there is a thread on this subject in the Pit if all you want to do is say “Neener neener neener” to persons you disagree with.
You might consider saving your crowing until about a year’s time, when we’ve had a chance to total up the death toll and see what the postwar Iraq is like.
Looks like I’ve started a Great Debate of sorts after all.
I’m suprised Baghdad has been such a pushover. Where were the Special Rebublican Guard and the SSO? I think this signals that the regime has truly lost effective control, and its resolve, and if you"cut the head" of a regime so abolutely centralized as Saddam’s, the corpse may tremble for a moment, but then it’s dead.
Iraqi troops in the areas currently still held by the Ba’athists should seize this opporunity to make an effective munity, otherwise they risk dying with their regime.
And as the war did not go as badly as pessimists (with some justification) predicted, I think we have fought the right war at the right time in the right place. Even if there were no WMD (and trust me, they’ll turn up) we’ve deposed Saddam Hussein. The Iraqis seem pretty happy about it. I could wait fifteen years to weigh up the long-term geopolitical and economic consequences of this war, as well as its effect on Arab nationalism and Islamicism, but in the here and now it boils down to this: we fought to despose a regime as bad as Hitler and we’re going to win inside of a month. With the Nazis it took six years. Nothing succeeds like success.
Calm down there ** newcrasher**. I am also pro-war (I think this war was the right thing to do), but lets not get ahead of ourselves. There’s still enemies out there though they are ineffective. More importantly, there’s a peace to be won.
You and a certain Mr. bin Laden have something in common, then. In fact, Mr. bin Laden hoped that his attack on the World Trade Center would lead to a US war which could be spun into a war against Islam, in which the US would be alienated from the Middle Eastern World and in which US-allied governments in the region would be destabilized, making it easier for radical theocrats to take over.
Daniel
As regards the OP, it sounds as if, ahem, I Know Lots feels that Operation Iraqi Freedom is some sort of game show. Hey, congratulations! Now you get to go on to the lightning round, where the score can really change.
Why? On what basis should I trust this assertion? Given that the entire propaganda force of the United States has been unable to come up with a compelling explanation of why I (or Jack Straw) should trust them, I’m wondering what you’ve got.
Daniel
I have read several books about post-Gulf War Iraq. the latest, which is only peripherally about Iraq, is “See No Evil” by Robert Baer.
He was a CIA agent working in Northern Iraq with the Kurdsin 92-95. Did you know that there was a rebellion set to take place, with the tacit approval of the USA in '94, but Bill Clinton pulled the plug on it with less than 24 hours to go? Anyway, throughout this book he mentions places where WOMD are kept and that the Kurds had people who tried their best to keep an eye on them.
Anyone who thinks there are no WOMD needs to read Hans Blix’s latest report to the UN, as well as other UN reports that acknowledge that they were there without a doubt as late as 1998. Where are they now? Where did they go? Those are the answers that would have avoided Saddams crumble.
I went from wondering what Bush was smoking (in my “Attack Iraq?” thread from long ago), to lukewarm support for the war. Why lukewarm? Honestly, the last time the US had what I would call an airtight rationale for invading Saddam was in 1998.
OTOH, Iraq had a unique relationship with the US and the UN, thanks to Saddam. His mere presence might constitute sufficient reason for ‘regime change,’ after his atrocities and invasions. He is/was like a cross between Hitler and Stalin. Nuff said.
Once it was clear we were going to invade, I moved to just praying it would end quickly without Saddam loosing a major epidemic or nerve gas on a major city. As was mentioned, we still haven’t seen the blowback or the extent of the guerilla warfare.
OTOH, there could be some positive blowback as well.
I watch the scrolling names of the dead kids, the youngest half my age, and I feel guilty for ever allowing myself to be in favor of such a shitty way to resolve problems. Then I think of all the poor Iraqi men, or the suicide bombing woman, some forced at bayonet point to sacrifice for the dying regime. Those people will never taste any of this freedom. Last, but not least, there are all the bystanders just snuffed out in an instant. Some were journalists–finally, unintentionally–getting the “big story.”
But, I’m always aware of the millions of past and future victims of the regime that have been avenged,* or may not suffer now.
Who, really, knows whether this was worth it? Maybe Saddam eats a bad oyster and dies anyway. But, now that he is gone, would I go back and rewrite history a la ANSWER or the IAC? No. Hell, no. I would not.
We may have to go to Syria to find those WMDs. Fourth Infantry is frosty. Hooah! 
*Usually not the greatest motivation unless you are dealing with murder or torture victims–or other similarly unambiguous cases.
How about this for a game show, Hentor the Barbarian : try to recognise irony in my posts. Bzzzz! You’ve failed! I know lots, sonny, and you know nowt.