By you, I suppose you mean kayaker?
Wow, and you know all of those things how?
The Nazi flag was/is not a political flag?
I didn’t say that the event was contrary to the rules, because, as I pointed out earlier, it was not a club sanctioned event. The point of the rules being brought up was to show how the event went against the spirit of the rules?
Well, I know the restaurant was closed, because that was reported. The pictures were taken and given to City Pages by an employee of the restaurant who was unhappy with the event, I’d bet my house that if people were reading from Mein Kampf, denouncing Jews, or saluting the Nazi flag, he or she would have mentioned, and likely documented, it.
It’s a political flag that later became a national flag, like the symbols on the flag of the Soviet Union.
I see no basis to believe that. If the spirit of the rules was that German-unit re-enactors should never assemble in a group in Nazi-era German uniforms, then the spirit of the rules are that re-enactments shouldn’t take place. I find it hard to believe that a re-enactment society would have that policy. Now, they certainly have a line they don’t want crossed, and this event didn’t cross it.
The fired waiter who hasn’t spoken to the press?
So, yes, a by-law violation then.
Streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch.
Yes, the one who took photos and passed them on. If the wearing of Nazi-era German uniforms was enough to motivate them to do this, you don’t think they’d mention or chronicle far more egregious and offensive behavior?
I don’t claim to read your mind, but you seem to be trying really hard to be offended by this, first by casting the “educational purposes” explanation as referring to the party, and now by allowing for the possibility that these people were engaged in blatantly neo-Nazi activities with no evidence for it.
No. Observe the unit directory of the WW2HRS. What flag do you see representing the German units? What flag do you see representing the Soviet units? If they forbid the swastika flag and the hammer and sickle, it’s rather odd that they’d be used to symbolize those units on the official website, wouldn’t you say? Evidently, national flags are acceptable, even those that were once political symbols, which only makes sense.
No, common sense. A WW2 re-enactment group frowning on people getting together in WW2 uniforms would be like a kite-flying group prohibiting string at group events.
We don’t know. And neither do you.
Have I ever posted anything about the word I bolded above?
You’ve got it completely backwards.
Yet the WWII re-enactment group disallows quite a few historical accuracies.
Do you know what the word “diluted” means? Good word for you to look up. It does not mean “exceeded”. However, I seriously doubt any atrocities have ever been worse than the Nazis 1939-45. Besides ~6 million Jews the Nazis are thought to have also murdered ~18 million Soviet civilians and ~ 3 million Polish civilians. It is reasonable to assume that the considerable numbers of civilians murdered in smaller countries such as Yugoslavia, Greece, the Netherlands and Belgium push the total number of victims to around 30 million. That is 5 million per year for 6 years. Then of course there are military deaths, all of which the Nazis were directly responsible for, probably totaling over 10 million non-Axis. Those numbers may in fact be unprecedented for a 6-year period, there being no way to compare 20th century record-keeping with medieval record keeping, (or with Chinese records 1937-45) and you would have done better to take that into account.
It was the reenactor cited by OP who set reenactors up as providing an educational experience, and that obviously means he at least has pretentions of authority. Therefore you have set up a strawman of your own, and need to direct your comments towards the offending reenactor rather than toward people like me who have apprehended the offence. The truth is that A person’s reenactment hobby is not sufficient basis for assuming he has anything to teach other than reenactment practices and procedures.
It is not magic that one Nazified country is better than more than one , and it is not magic that there has only been one Nazified country, except maybe in the minds of people like you who see potential Nazis wherever they look.
i.e. You know you don’t know enough to give any lessons.
“Stereotype” and “demonize” are examples of empty-headed pseudo-intellectual jargon used only by people who have no light to shed on the subject. And if you had any sense of reality and proportion you would realize that the Nazis were identical to their own stereotype, and that they were, in fact, demonic.
Consensus is that the harsh terms of Versailles created conditions making war more likely. What most accounts fail to emphasize, however, is that war could have been averted as long as the victors exercised their certain right and certain ability to prevent the Rhineland’s industry from being made available for armament production. As it was the victors yielded without a fight (which they would have won) to the 1936 German remilitarization of the area. That is what really made WW2 inevitable.
Consensus is that the harsh terms of Versailles created conditions making war more likely. What most accounts fail to emphasize, however, is that war could have been averted as long as the victors exercised their certain right and certain ability to prevent the Rhineland’s industry from being made available for armament production. As it was the victors yielded without a fight (which they would have won) to the 1936 German remilitarization of the area. That is what really made WW2 inevitable.
I have already mentioned that I would be willing to listen to what these clowns have to say. I won’t promise to hear them out like I have heard you out so far.
It is obvious, absolutely blindingly obvious, that the case under discussion here is use of the swastika as a POLITICAL symbol, and it is sophistry (another good word for you to look up) to pretend any other use is relevant.
We can agree that they were in uniform, and eating, yes?
No, but reading from Mein Kampf and denoucing Jews would be neo-Nazi activities. That’s what I was referring to. Saying that we don’t know they weren’t doing that indicates that you’re prepared, or even eager, to believe the absolute worst about these people, for some reason.
I don’t know what you mean by this.
Yes, they also allow many more historical accuracies. Wearing non-Nazi uniforms, and displaying the German national flag of the era, which was a Nazi flag, are among those. Saying the spirit of their rules also rules out those activities is absurd.
That are highly political and sure to offend during re-enactment* shows*.
Like Black-SS uniforms, HJ outfits and flying the swastika flag on a pole.
What is your point?
The re-enactment society itself offers free educational services, and it’s a core part of their mission. It’s certainly possible that they are bad at it, but it’s not as though they are assuming that being re-enactors makes them useful educators, they are specifically trying to be useful educators.
Wait. I am the one making assumptions? Bull. Shit. All of the assumptions are dripping from your posts and your posts alone. First you’re assuming what was read and said. Then you assume my intent and alleged beliefs regarding these people’s political stance. Knock it the fuck off.
Wait. So several different swastika flags hung on a wall for a holiday party=not offensive. Flying a swastika on a pole during an historically accurate re-enactment show=offensive? That’s quite the interesting line in the sand.
I would think the swastika flags more authentic for an army dinner than during a military show.
As for the difference in offence given, one is a private party behind closed doors, the other an open-air event.
Do we even need to discuss this???
We’re discussing this because you keep talking. That’s how message boards work though.
Are you also saying that hanging a swastika on a wall is less offensive than on a flag pole?
I don’t recall saying you were making assumptions. I did say you seemed to be (and I noted that this was my impression only, and not some objective fact) trying hard to be offended by this dinner party. The OP, where you take the attendee’s statement out of context to claim his explanation applies to the event, which has the effect of making this supposed explanation sound ridiculous, fully supports that statement.
That’s the line the WW2HRS has drawn. They don’t prohibit the Soviet, Italian, Japanese, or Nazi German (or French, oddly) flag from being displayed, they prohibit them from being flown from a pole or staff, and from being saluted:
Here’s a Nazi flag being displayed, but not flown from a pole or staff, at a WW2HRS event.
Here’s a Soviet flag, being displayed, but not flown from a pole or a staff, at a WW2HRS event.
I wasn’t in the room when they passed the bylaws, so I don’t know what else to tell you.
Simple analogy:
A group of history fans want to get together and recreate the history and regular lives of well-known pedophiles. The group they belong to makes sure to background screen all of them to make sure that they’re not pedos, but that they just enjoy history. They have a holiday party at Chuck-E-Cheese and put up some provocative pictures up on the wall.
Since this is all in the name of hobbyists, it’s ok, right?
Answer: Fuck no.
I am starting to agree with **Human Action ** that you are trying really really really hard to find something to be offended about.
I’m not “trying hard to be offended by this dinner party”. I AM offended by this dinner party.
And what a stupid line they’ve drawn is.
I get that…you just appear to be willing to make it, and the participants sound worse than it/they were.
I’m not a flag expert, maybe flying it on a pole is more prestigious and honors the flag more. Carrying it before the unit on a staff certainly would, I’d think. If so, permitting flags to be hung from a fence, or draped on a table, as in those pictures, lets the re-enactors identify their camps and get a period-correct look and feel, without honoring the flags.
Here’s the contact info for the WW2HRS, maybe they can explain it to your satisfaction, or you can share your critiques.
Yeah, I would think that was obvious. This isn’t that baffling of a line in the sand.
Better make sure you got a gripping Subject line. Have a feeling they are getting a few extra emails this week. lol.
Doncha just hate it when people make people who dress up as Nazis look bad?