That’s because I don’t know much about trans-Atlantic flight, or what Lindbergh didn’t do. I’d never even heard of Alcock and Brown. I just know what Lindbergh did do, because I know a lot about him tangential to the story of his son’s kidnapping, about which I know a lot, and I know about him because Dorothy Parker was a fan of his, and mentions him fairly often, and I love Dorothy Parker.
I’m not a fan myself of an adulterer with Nazi aspirations; however, he did make the first NY/Paris flight, which apparently was something at the time-- something specific, and more than just a trans-Atlantic flight, and he made it solo, which was just extra icing on the cake.
Precisely my point, because Americans tend to be taught that only American achievements count (and sometimes, given American media power, to spread the misinformation even beyond America). It is the same as “Sally Ride was the first woman in space,” which I have also heard.
Anyway, if you are aware don’t know much about it, what are you doing in here trying to debunk, or rehabilitate, or otherwise argue about, myths about it?
If you define your criteria narrowly and specifically enough, everybody is a record holder and the “first in history” at something.
I’ve always thought the hoopla was because of just this, that he did it solo. I personally have never heard anyone say he was the first to cross the ocean, just the first solo. Alcock and Brown certainly did not cross it solo, or if one or both did, it was after Lindbergh.
Speaking of navigational feats, the first circumnavigation of the globe was by Juan Sebastián Elcano; Magellan got killed in the Philippines.
Other forgotten explorers; the first known European sighting of the Americas. The smart cookies will say Leif Erikson, but the credit goes to Bjarni Herjólfsson who was a merchant blown off course and sighted North America waaay back in 986.
Also, I bet Dutch people get annoyed that everyone here thinks James Cook was the first European to see Australia when Willem Janszoon did more than 100 years before he was born!
…and the rest. It does take a whole crew to make a ship work, and I’m assuming that at least some of the hands who started the voyage lived to see the end.
In fact, Wikipedia suggeststhat 17 other men survived the whole voyage and even names one, Antonio Pigafetta. They’ve got exactly a good as claim as Elcano to have done it “first” even if we can’t easily look them up. (I assume there’s a crew list somewhere).
18 men returned to Seville aboard Victoria in 1522:
Name Rating
Juan Sebastián Elcano, from Getaria (Spain) Master
Francisco Albo, from Rodas (in Tui, Galicia) Pilot
Miguel de Rodas (in Tui, Galicia) Pilot
Juan de Acurio, from Bermeo Pilot
Antonio Lombardo (Pigafetta), from Vicenza Supernumerary
Martín de Judicibus, from Genoa Chief Steward
Hernándo de Bustamante, from Alcántara Mariner
Nicholas the Greek, from Nafplion Mariner
Miguel Sánchez, from Rodas (in Tui, Galicia) Mariner
Antonio Hernández Colmenero, from Huelva Mariner
Francisco Rodrigues, Portuguese from Seville Mariner
Juan Rodríguez, from Huelva Mariner
Diego Carmena, from Baiona (Galicia) Mariner
Hans of Aachen, (Holy Roman Empire) Gunner
Juan de Arratia, from Bilbao Able Seaman
Vasco Gómez Gallego, from Baiona (Galicia) Able Seaman
Juan de Santandrés, from Cueto (Cantabria) Apprentice Seaman
Juan de Zubileta, from Barakaldo Page
My favorite comment about that is a supposed real statement made by a schoolkid in one of those collections of humorous homework assignments: “Magellan sailed around the world, and when got back to Spain told everyone how he’d been killed I n the Phillipines.”
I read somewhere that on a previous voyage Magellan sailed east to the orient and returned to Europe, and may be the first person to have crossed all lines of longitude. So it kinda depends on what you consider to be a circumnavigation.
I suppose it depends if you survive- like did Mallory really get to the summit of Everest in 1929 or whatever? He didn’t get down in one piece so Edmund Hillary gets the credit along with Sherpa Tensing.
The best evidence says Mallory didn’t make it to the top at all, so Hillary and Norgay are the rightful record-holders. But Hillary did one make a comment like yours, that he didn’t think you have really summited a mountain unless you get home alive.
I wasn’t taught anything about Lindbergh in school. I know about him because I read a lot about his son’s kidnapping.
Specifically, I have never heard anyone say that he was the first to fly across the Atlantic, just that he was the first to fly solo, and that what he did was kind of risky, which is why he was called “Lucky Lindy.” People thought he had sort of a charmed life, until his son was kidnapped and killed. I was also aware that he was pursuing a prize established by some people with some specific entrepreneurial goals, which is why they wanted a non-stop NY/Paris flight.
I was trying to point out that there really isn’t as much misinformation about Lindbergh as perhaps some people think.
Also, I don’t think Americans are as US-centric as some non-US people think. Naturally, we are taught more about the US than about other places, but I think that’s true of any country. Americans who are ignorant of non-US history are generally ignorant of US history as well. Seriously. The same people who don’t know what the capital of France is don’t know what the capital of New York is either. You won’t find an American who can recite all the amendments to the constitution, but doesn’t know what the Magna Carta is. People who have never heard of the Magna Carta are the people who don’t know the difference between the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, and yes, those people exist, and they make me hang my head in shame.
What point are you trying to make here? This is a thread about annoying historical myths. Cicero said:
That was correct.* Yet you immediately jump in with a post about how great Lindbergh actually was. Although you did not say it outright, you certainly seemed to contradicting Cicero’s post, and strongly implying that what he had called a myth is actually true. You continued to defend your position through several more posts, arguing with me, until you admitted that you actually knew nothing about the history of transatlantic flight and had never even heard of the actual first people to fly the Atlantic. But you still seem to be too butthurt to admit that Cicero was right, and that you, even if not peddling outright falsehoods, were way off base in your responses, first to him and then to me, shoring up ignorance rather than fighting it.
If Cicero had said that Lindbergh was a fraud, or a liar (or if it were commonly believed that he was), there might have been some other point to your post, but he said no such thing (and AFAIK there is no such common belief).
To repeat myself, nobody is saying that Lindbergh’s flight was not quite an impressive feat, and nobody is calling him a fraud, but he was not, as many people do believe (mostly Americans and others who get their history from American popular culture), the first to cross the Atlantic by air (as he himself knew perfectly well, and freely admitted).
¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬
*Well, I assume he has correct about the “around 80”. I really do not know about that, but there were a good eight years between Alcock and Brown’s flight (and Curtis’) and Lindbergh’s, so there was plenty of time for a lot more people to do it.
I’m not sure that really is a myth. I pointed out what Lindbergh actually did do, because IME, he is known for what he did do. I don’t know anyone who thinks he made the first trans-Atlantic flight; most people I know who know anything about him know correctly that he made a non-stop NY/Paris flight in pursuit of a prize that had eluded a lot of people, and that he did it solo, and so it ended up being the first solo flight. I know some people who think the “solo” was a requirement of the prize, which it wasn’t, but that’s the only myth I know associated with his flight.
