Hey, don’t blame me (and, apparently, jab) for reading what you wrote instead of reading your mind.
Umm… understand the point you are trying to make, but on the one hand, you talk about “Greeks had a very good record…” then, when talking about Atlantis, go on to say “Plato mentions it in one of his illustrative stories…”
You can’t rightfully claim that Platos records should be held in the same light as other ‘Greek records’ just because he was Greek.
That’s like saying:
1.) Trees bear tasty fruit.
2.) Crab-Apples come from trees.
3.) Therefour, crab apples are tasty.
See the problem?
I think a few years back they found evidence in Egypt that a place called Soddom or Gommorah actually existed. I believe they found this evidence on some sort of trade document. Noticed I said “I think” and “I believe” instead of giving you anything solid, my apologies.
Marc
I’ve heared something similar, but it refered to a hyroglyph that refered to some sort of mass exodus. But this gylph was the ONLY one found, out of all the known writings, to mention something like this.
This was what sparked my question. Are there external records that can coroborate these books. (IE: The bible.)
Do I really need to use a smiley every time I am being ironic? I thought it was crystal clear.
After all, how often do you see the word dude in GD?
MR
Does it make you feel good to put together syllogistic sophisms?
You have missed my point entirely. Ben was using the supposedly vaunted Greek historical record, naming Troy, Minoan Crete, and Atlantis as examples.
My point is that Troy and Minoan Crete are borne out by the archaeological record. We have found enough evidence for them that they pass historical muster.
Plato, IMHO, is full of kopros. Hence my statement:
Could I be making myself any clearer?
MR
Sorry dude. I misunderstood.
I’ve gone back and read the post again…not it makes wsence…sometimes it just takes a smack in the head. 
(See? I said “Dude” 
)
There are scads, tons, lots, bunches, etc etc. You are talking about several thousand years of history, much of which, but by no means all, has been solidly verified by archeologists. You are gonna have to narrow it down a bit- unless you are asing for just one thing, anything which is in the Bible, but verified thru outside sources? Or do you want us to go thru EVERYTHING that is in the Bible, line by line, and show where the verification is?
For Eg, Pontius Pilate is verified by Roman records as the Governor of Judea. Herod was the “king”. Ceasar Augustus, and several others were real Roman emperors. Many of the other, non-Isrealite Kings, such as Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Necho, etc etc are all real historical rulers (and were 1st found in the Bible, then later verified thru digs). There is massive, solid evidence of several of the Israeli Kings.
Your query is far too vague. Narrow it down some, eh?
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I’m afraid that this adds little, if anything, to your original comment. Who mentioned James, what did he say, when did he say it, and where was it written?
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I think there’s a big difference between David and the House of David…
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I’ll repeat the question which you didn’t answer yet: Do you believe in the literal existence of Amaterasu, the Japanese Sun goddess? For that matter, do you believe that Noah was a historical personage?
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I would dispute whether that is the case- serious differences, IIRC, exist between the Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls (serious, at least, with regard to Biblical literalists and folks who say that the meanings of the verses never changed.) In any event, it hardly matters with regard to the OP, for obvious reasons.
Outside of the movie “King Kong”, is there any evidence for the existence of King Kong? The problem lies in what, exactly, is supposed to be “corroborated.” The Bible gets a lot of stuff right, just like “King Kong” did- after all, the Empire State Building is a real building. It’s unsurprising that if someone living in Rome wanted to start a new religion about a guy who was executed by the governor, he would be sure to get the name of the governor right.
The question is, can we really trust the Bible on big issues? Can we trust the OT to be an accurate record of how the nation of Israel came to be? The answer appears to be no. The Exodus would have left a great deal of archaeological evidence, but it just isn’t there. We don’t find a lot of tombs dating to such-and-such year full of young boys who were struck down by the plagues. The records of adjacent countries don’t mention there being a sudden plethora of frogs in Egypt. The destruction of the Egyptian army would have had a major effect on world history by creating a power vaccuum in the area, but that didn’t happen.
As for Atlantis, I think I’d better make some clarifying comments before you folks rip each other’s throats out. When I mentioned Atlantis, I was referring to the body of scholarly opinion which suggests that Atlantis was a reference to Thera. I scarcely see how that puts me in the same league as people who think Elvis is still alive.
-Ben
Let me get this straight:
You’re saying that the existence of buildings alone proves that an event actually happened around those buildings?
WTF?
Look: the Quran mentions Yathrib (now known as Medina), Jerusalem, and Makkah (aka Mecca). Now, all three of those cities exist; as does the cave in which Muhammed says he received the first revelations.
So, what you’re telling me here, given the above, is that the Quran is true!
Give me a break.
Conductor! Please issue more tickets for the Reality Train.
p.s. I’m not saying that the Quaran isn’t (or even that it is) true; I’m just making a point about the difference between a freaking building and an event.
Maeglin, David B: Some archaelogists have presented a pretty convincing case (at least to this non-archaelogist) that a major volcanic eruption in the Aegean Sea (I believe the site was near the island of Santorini, but I will have to check the spelling) served as the basis for the Atlantean myth. If their theory holds water, then Atlantis is explained and the Greeks were not as gullible as some would think.
Ben, do not have a source at present, but I believe I heard a couple of years on the news that archaelogists have a found a stele in the Holy Land & and said stele provides the first solid evidence that King David was a real person.
Peyote Coyote said:
As I said above:
The question of whether those fragments really do refer to the House of David is still open to debate.
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Josephus, AD62. This is not the hotly debated, possibly forged or added later, much longer & very favorable mention of Jesus- but simply a note that JC’s brother was stoned to death, by order of Ananeus II.
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Are you really demanding an answer to this question? Well, we have evidence of Shishak taking Jerusalem from Rehoboam, in 928BC, which is only 2 generations later. Thats is quite a short time to make up a mythical Father & grandfather. There is some evidence of David & Solomon- altho it is weak, there is not legeit historian that doubts that David was not a real King- and nobody seriously thinks Ameratsu was real. After all somebody captured Jerusalem, and built the Temple
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Which body of scholarly opinion? Cites? Most historians I have read discount this theory heavily- altho it is not impossible it might have influenced Plato, when he made up his story about Atlantis, There was never known as Atlanis, was not outside the pillars of Hercules, was no round, did not have walls of orichalum, etc.
How about 2Kings23:29, where the battle of Megiddo was described, very accurately? The destruction of the Temple in 586Bc by Nebuchadnezzar (who was known entirely from Biblical sources for nearly 200 years)?
Very few actual historical facts in the Bible have been disproved, and many have been proved by digs. There is no evidence of the Miracles, and the numbers for populations & warriors in the early OT seem to be of numerological significance, rather than historical- true. But over all, the Bible has shown itself to be as good a source of history as any period document. There are numerous scholary sources on this- including a whole magazine- Biblical Archeology- which does indeed, cast doubt on few items.
I think we’d need to divide this up into three periods. And I assume we’re looking for outside documentation of existence of people/characters or major events, not just buildings, political rulers, etc. I also need to say, the field is an exciting one, and new discoveries are made regularly, so I can only cite PRESENT state of the art.
Early Biblical History – say, books of Genesis through II Samuel, roughly preceding 950 BC, including Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, and Solomon.
There is no clear external (non-Biblical) evidence of the existence of any of these people. Frinstance, there is no Egyptian carving that says, “Army drowned in Sea, slaves escape.”
There are some references that can be stretched – such as a reference to Ivri (similar word to “Hebrew”) on an Egyptian stele. The famous “House of David” carving is used as evidence that the royal Davidic family existed. At present, such bits of evidence are ambiguous, and you can find archaeologists and scholars arguing either side.
This is an area where many people allow their emotions to overwhelm their science, on both sides – people so anxious to “prove” Biblical events that they twist the evidence one way, and people so anxious to “disprove” Biblical events that the twist the evidence the other way. Such disputes include the existence of David, the take-over of Canaan by Joshua, etc.
Late Old Testament History – say, Kings through the Prophets, let’s say 950 BC to 500 BC, roughly.
There are many points at which Biblical history can be documented in external sources, some of which have been cited above by others. The most complete is a battle where we have the Biblical version and the Babylonian version; the accounts are remarkably similar in fact, but different in interpretations or reasons. The Babylonians laid seige to Jerusalem; the Biblical account says that a miracle occurred, a plague hit the Babylonian army and they packed up and left; the Babylonian account says they were bribed off by gold and loot and so went back home. Shrug. Facts in agreement: seige happened and was called off. Interpretation behind it: different presentation based on political attitude.
Of course, much of the poetry of the Prophets is ambiguous, and can be interpreted in different ways, so one must be cautious about some points of intersection. However, the narrative accounts of kings and battles are usually accepted as fairly accurate.
Later books that are not in the Hebrew Bible, such as Maccabbees, and New Testament – say, roughly, 400 BC to 150 AD.
There are again many points at which Biblical history is documented in external sources, and many Biblical figures (such as the Maccabean family) recorded in Assyrian history.
When we get to New Testament, there is NO contemporary external documentation for the existence of Jesus (Josephus’ writings are extremely dubious, and were written 40 - 50 years after Jesus’ death.) This is not surprising; Jesus was a marginal figure at the time, a backwoods preacher from an unimportant family. He didn’t have enough money or property to appear on tax rolls. They didn’t bother with lists of unimportant people who were executed. So the absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence.
Hope that summary helps.
Just one little addition I’d like to make here: I’m pretty sure I recall reading an article in Reader’s Digest about the discovery of an altar that the discoverers thought might be the one Joshua had built upon entering the land of Canaan. After filtering through the sites which are clearly biased in favor of the religious interpretation, I found this Jerusalem Post article which at least mentions the discovery in passing, and, while Israeli, the JP is not a pro-religious paper. It says the discovery was made by a Professor Adam Zertal…anyone heard of him? Is he a respected archaeologist, or a known religious crackpot?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Danielinthewolvesden *
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This is a little different from your original argument. What is the nature of this evidence? Do we have a genealogy of Rehoboam which dates to 928BC?
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There is a gate in Notre Dame which is said to have been made by the Devil. Do you believe that? Hey, somebody had to.
Look, I don’t dispute whether David existed or not. I’m just pointing out that you’re trying to prove that point with some really bad arguments. It’s not even entirely clear what you’re trying to argue. Even if there was a king named David who captured Jerusalem, so? Does that mean that any of the stories about Bathsheba and whatnot have any validity to them? After all, King Arthur really existed- but it’s not clear what “really existed” means when there is no Excalibur, no Camelot, and no Round Table.
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In that case, perhaps I was wrong; this isn’t a point I’ve studied much. So? Carl Sagan was impressed by the evidence that Thera=Atlantis. Are you guys going to lump him in with the Weekly World News crowd? Sheesh…
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If the OT was written soon after the destruction of the Temple, then isn’t it reasonable to think that it would accurately record that destruction?
What does this have to do with anything? Daniel, once again you’re just weaselling. I’ve brought up some good reasons to doubt that the Exodus ever happened, and in the past you’ve been presented with evidence that archaeologists find it laughable to think that Exodus has any basis in historical reality. Your reply? You just change the subject and start talking about Megiddo and Nebuchadnezzar.
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Yeah, right- “If King Kong was real, then why don’t we see all the evidence one would expect from such a big disaster?” To which the true believer replies, “What about the Empire State Building? What about the clothes we saw people wear in the movie? The movie is as good a historical document as any movie of its time.” Please address the issues I actually raised, Daniel- your weaselling doesn’t do your religion any credit.
-Ben
Ben: the next lines in my post were not address specifically to you- they were to show that SOME things in the Bible are solid, outside verified history. However, what exactly are we debating, here? The original OP asked if ANYTHING in the Bible has been validated form outside sources- and the answer is clearly “YES!”. Next- No one is trying to say that the Miracles, etc, have evidence, as to the literal verse (eg- there was a “great flood”, certainly- but that does not prove the story of Noah by any means).
So what do you want me to show/debate?
The reality of King David? The Oxford Guide & Asimov both say there is outside verification of the 1st taking of Jerusalem in 928BC. Now, clearly SOME Jewish King conquored the city & built the Temple, and not very long before it enters into “outside” recorded history. And there is SOME, slight evidence of there being a King David- not all the storys attributed to him, true, but some evidence that he did really live. The King Arthur of the round table is mostly mythical- but there really was such a man. The actual history of the Bible, after Moses, is mostly solid- the details, numbers, & miracles are not. As we get later, the evidence mounts up- and altho certainly some stuff was exagerated, very little has actually been disproved. So, if the actual historical events of the later OT are mostly documentable form outside sources- but we have only faint & fuzzy info before then- why not assume that the facts are mostly good in the earlier parts also? Why tell the truth for a millenium, then lie about other years?
Do you want to discuss the Exodus?- as i said “after Moses”- there is no good Archeological evidence for anything from Moses time on back. You either consider it myths, or take it on faith. Surely, the Isrealites came from somewhere, and something like the exodus could have occured- but there is no evidence. The numbers are likely based on Gematria, not actual real years & population counts.
Or do you want to discuss King Kong & Ameratsu? “My religion”?? My religion does not hold that the OT is anything more than History & Myths- deeply respected, true, as they are the basis of our faith. We do not consider the OT, or even most of the NT, in any way “inerrant”. I am not argueing the OT as history from faith- my Faith requires no such foundation. However, i am a fair Bible & History student.
Tell me exactly what you want to debate- and I’ll do it- but your queries, like the Op, are kinda vague.
Okay, I still haven’t come up with any evidence in my notes for David being a historical person, but I thought would nitpick (again).
Sodom (or S’dom) is generally considered to be in Israel. The south end of the Dead Sea has many pillars of salt reminsicent of the fate of Lot’s wife.